A Biblical Theology

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Mark Osgatharp, Nov 1, 2005.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here is my own brief summary of what the Bible teaches on the points of controversy relative to the "Calvinist/Arminian" debate. I am prepared to stand before God in judgment and confess these things and I commend them for your prayerful consideration.

    1. Man is totally depraved. He has no goodness in him and would never seek God unless God first sought him. Through the power of the Holy Spirit - operating in the revelations of nature, the preached word and the testimony of His saints - man is given light and ability to seek God and accept Christ.

    2. Before the foundation of the world God predestinated Christ, through His crucifixion and resurrection, as the way of salvation and chose that all who trust in Him will be redeemed from the bondage of sin. Those who actually trust in Him are numbered among God's elect and will never perish.

    3. The propitation made by Christ in His sacrifice for sin was sufficent to save all men every where. God desires the salvation of all and takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that he should turn to Christ and live.

    The only men who are actually reconciled to God are those who receive God's atonement and thus have their sins purged by the blood of Christ. All other's will die in their sins and receive the just recompence of their sins.

    4. While God draws men to Himself through the Holy Spirit - operating in the revelations of nature, the preached word and the testimony of His saints - men can and do resist the grace of God. Nothing prevents the salvation of the greatest sinner on earth but his own voluntary rejection of God.

    5. All believers are predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ. Though they can, and do, fall into sin and error, and even persist therein till until death of the physical body, they are kept by the mercy of the Father, the power of the Son, and the sealing of the Holy Spirit and will be raised up again into eternal life in the last day.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  2. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mark Osgatharp,

    I second the motion on the truth and the motion passed on this theological floor.

    Nothing is better than Jesus' truth!

    A brother saved by His mercy.

    Ray
     
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,215
    Likes Received:
    1,318
    What a bunch of misinformation!

    Wrong on the very first point. Lost men have a lot of good in them. They often work hard, love their wives, provide for their children, and are productive members of society. They just can't come to Christ on the basis of their own goodness, for it is insufficient to impress God.
    Not bad except for the last sentence. It should read "Those who actually will trust in Him are numbered among God's elect and will never perish."
    Yes, you finally got it right (well, except the spelling of propitiation and sufficient [​IMG] ). Sufficient for all. But efficient only for those who believe, the elect.
    Oh oh! BIG problem. You really dropped the ball on this one! You say those "who receive God's atonement." Christ made the atonement, and offered it to God. The atonement is offered to the one offended not to the offender. If Christ offered the atonement to any man, that man would have to be God! Only God was offended by man's sin and Christ offered the atonement only to God the Father. The atonement has never been offered to men. All that is offered to men is grace. You cannot reject that which you have never been offered.
    And, of course, every sinner without exception will continue to reject God until God intervenes with His word by His Grace.
    Amen! A pure Calvinistic statement!

    Now, have you abandoned your silly idea that you can become unsaved after being saved? If so, well done! I am glad to hear that you now believe in the eternal security of every believers in Christ.
     
  4. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    TCassidy,

    I don't have time right now to address your whole post, but the O.T. says, that even the plowing of the wicked is sin' in the eyes of the Lord. Look up the word, 'plowing' in the concordance.

    To you, you might think there is good being done as I also believe humanly speaking, but when God looks at their good works they are all filthy rags.
     
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,215
    Likes Received:
    1,318
    Yes, we all know that. Would you like to deal with the claim that the atonement is offered to us, the offender, instead of to God, the offended?
     
  6. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    But Paul said, "In me, that is in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing." And David said, "there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

    But Jesus said, "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep."

    And you said, "efficient only for those who believe, the elect." So which is it? Are the elect "those who believe" or "those who will believe"?

    The word "atonement" is found only once in the New Testament of the King James Bible and it says,

    "we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." But you say,

    You are confusing the atonement with the sacrifice of Christ. The sacrifice of Christ as a propitiation for sin was offered to God (and also by God, I might add). "Atonement" means reconciliation and that was offered by God to man on the basis of the sacrifice Christ made.

    Depends on what you mean by "intervenes". None of us would accept God or even seek God if He did not intervene - that is what I already said. But if by "intervene" you mean make us accept him, that flies in the face of numerous Scriptures which teach that God will not save the impenitent. You say God does save the impenitent.

    Hardly a Calvinistic statement because Calvinism teaches that real saints persevere in good works and that apparent backsliders were never truly regenerate. Furthermore, Calvinists also teach that their imaginary group of "elect unbelievers" are just as predestinated to glory as believers.

    My friend, I've never believed in nor advocated that a man can become "unsaved". I believed in eternal security of the believer even before I believed in the Lord!

    But I might note that Calvinists not only believe a man can't become "unsaved" after being saved, they don't think a man was unsaved before he was saved!

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    You were doing great right up to here. Please don't make up the beliefs of the other side. Calvinists do believe that man was unsaved before he gets saved.
     
  8. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Larry,

    Calvinism teaches the silly idea that God predesinated "the elect" to go to heaven before the foundation of the world. Could you explain to me how, in that scenario, it could ever be said that they were "unsaved"?

    By the way, TCassidy made up the accusation against me that I had believed the silly idea that a saved man can become unsaved. I have never believed that. Maybe you could offer him a little reproof in kind, huh?

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,215
    Likes Received:
    1,318
    Yes, thank you for proving my point. The reason they don't believe is because they are not of His sheep. His sheep hear His voice and follow Him.
    Yes.
    Sorry, but the word in Romans 5:11 is "katallaghn" meaning "reconciliation" not "epanorVwsh" meaning "atonement."
    No, you are.
    Sorry, but "atonement" means "reparation made for an injury or wrong; expiation." Reparations are always made to the wronged party, not to the party doing the wrong.
    Wrong again. Everybody backslides. Those who are truly saved will always return to the fold.
    Of course, as soon as they believe, repent, and come to Christ.
    Correct, because he can't.
    Wrong again! He is elect unto salvation. Prior to salvation he was lost as Hogan's goat!
     
  10. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,398
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well said Mark in the OP----Amen!!

    Bro Tony

    This is from a brother who is neither Arminian or Calvinistic in his theology. Regardless of the view that some hold here that you must be one or the other.
     
  11. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    TCassidy,

    I agree with you that you have fine tuned the truth as to the atonement. You said, 'Yes, we all know that. Would you like to deal with the claim that the atonement is offered to us, the offender, instead of to God, the offended?'

    God the Father is the offended Person.

    I would say that God offers to all convicted sinners the gift of grace [Ephesians 2:8]; if they receive Christ then He atones for sins committed against God who is absolute holiness. Our sins are purged and cleansed away forever.
     
  12. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,215
    Likes Received:
    1,318
    I agree. And especially with the point about the atonement only being applied when they believe. Sufficient for all, efficient only for those who believe. Psalm 133:1 "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!" [​IMG]
     
  13. AresMan

    AresMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    What happens if a believer dies while in a period of backsliding and thus didn't have a chance to "return to the fold"?
    What happens if a believer stays strong for a long time, then only backslides once for a while and dies in the process. Would you conclude that this person was never saved because he didn't "persevere to the end"?
     
  14. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    I would contend that it is both propitiation and expiation.
     
  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,215
    Likes Received:
    1,318
    No.
     
  16. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    AreSman,

    II Timothy 2:19-21 indicates there are Christians who worth about the value of 'wood and earth' and are a dishonor to the Lord.

    There are at least two Scriptures in the N.T. that indicates there is 'a sin unto death' that at times the Lord put into His providential events for true believers. He takes them to Heaven early because of their useless testimony and lifestyle.

    I believe I read that TCassidy believes in the perfect security of true Christians as do I. Eternal security is true but is not an excuse or license to sin against the Lord.

    Knowing we are saved forever should be an incentive for us to reach other lost sinners. On the other hand, I am sure there are Christians who believe in this Christian doctrine who neglect witnessing to their faith everyday. This is not good.
     
  17. 2BHizown

    2BHizown
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mark said:Calvinism teaches the silly idea that God predesinated "the elect" to go to heaven before the foundation of the world. Could you explain to me how, in that scenario, it could ever be said that they were "unsaved"?


    Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without bleme before Him in love.

    Doesnt seem sily to me. Seems glorious and wonderful!!
     
  18. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Bible clearly declares that God chose us to be saved from teh beginning, so it is hard to understand why you would call that "silly." The revelation of God certainly deserves better, and so do the people in this forum. You are not lifting the conversation as I asked you to do. Please be a leader.

    No one here needs to use the word "silly" to describe something, though "silly" it may be. Let's do better.

    With respect to your question, election and salvation are two different things. All elect are unsaved until they come to God in faith. 2 Tim 2:10 is irrefutable proof that the elect still need to be saved.
     
  19. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen. So any man who does not believe on Him is not His sheep. I don't know How Jesus could have routed Calvinism any more plainly.

    That may be how Calvinist theology defines the term "atonement." But the word itself means "reconciliation" and that is why the King James translators used it Romans 5:11 where Paul explicitly says we have "received the atonement [reconciliation]."

    That may be what you personally believe about it, but I have both heard and read numerous Calvinists who assert that real beleivers don't backslide and that is what they mean by "perseverance of the saints."

    I might add that all believers don't necessarily return to the fold in this life, though they most certainly will when God raises them up from the dead.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  20. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    How does this rout Calvinism?

    You have two different words in mind. The word in Rom 5:11 is katalagge which means to put in friendship with. The word for atonement is the word-group hilaso-. It means to propitiate, or to appease.

    Usually, the way it is put is that true believers don't "finally" fall away.
     

Share This Page

Loading...