A Birth Control Quiz

Sorry if you thought I was going in that direction. My statement was in regard to marriage in general.

My statement was meant as a general statement about this Catholic addition to scripture.

 

Sorry if you thought I was going in that direction. My statement was in regard to marriage in general.

My statement was meant as a general statement about this Catholic addition to scripture. </font>[/QUOTE]More strawmen abound! Catholics aren't adding to scripture. As Carson pointed out. The CC does not teach that marriage is ONLY for creating chlidren.


LaRae

 

The addition to scripture is that contraception is inherently sinful.

I'm not exactly sure who is making straw men here.

 

LaRae:
You are flat out wrong. Go do the research, call a OBGYN or Planned Parenthood. The Pill absolutely DOES cause abortion.

The hormones in the pill cause the uterus lining to thicken....women do conceive while using the pill...when this happens the pill generally prevents the FERTILIZED egg (ie CHILD) from implanting on the uterine wall. Therefore the child is aborted.


No, LaRae, I'm right. I don't need to call Planned Parenthood; I am a physician (obviously you don't check the profiles of those with whom you disagree). Wherever you got your information or the light in which you interpreted it is at best ignorance and at worst misinformation.

The first event that occurs after fertilization (and implantation) is that the syncitiotrophoblast (the neo-placenta) begins to secrete progesterone. To this point in a normal cycle, estrogen has been the dominant hormone in the mileu. The zygote wants a thickened uterine lining. Progesterone promotes this differentiation (after estrogen has caused proliferation in the first half of the cycle).

Modern oral contraceptives (OCPs) mirror the normal cycle, but with generally lower levels of both estrogen and progesterone (similar to the way they appear in the normal cycle). The idea is to prevent the ovaries from secreting these hormones and ovulating. If fertilization occurs mid cycle, most OCPs are already at the "progestin" phase of their cycle. At best they compliment the new progesterone already being produced by the zygote. There are variations on these pills, but they are generally "progestin only" pills (again, which would compliment the early phase of pregnancy, not interfere with it).

LaRae:
I know exactly what I am talking about. I have done the research.


I know exactly what I am talking about; I have gone to medical school.

 

Why should I check your profile before I disagree with you? Because you are a doctor you can't be wrong?

As I said, call an OBGYN and Planned Parenthood. I've read the literature about how the pill works and on PP website they even acknowledge that a woman can become pregnant on the pill and be unable to 'keep' the pregnancy due to how the pill works.

I've also talked to my OBGYN about it and he also concurs.

It is gross neglience for a doctor to perscribe the Pill without warning women of the possible side effects if one becomes pregnant. To say nothing of the other risk factors associated with the Pill.


LaRae

 

Actually that would be you. Just re-read some of the posts.

Seems to me that Onan was struck dead....I don't think God approved of what he did.


LaRae

 

When God strikes people dead for using contraseption I'll see the relevance of your statement. Until then, I think we've said everything there is to be said between us.

 

Yes, thank God this heresy was rejected in the fifth century. </font>[/QUOTE]

This "heresy" is completely in line with what Scripture teaches. To believe in creationism to attribute sin to God. That is blasphemy. You have simply bought a false authority.

[ October 28, 2003, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Not at all. You are simply not thinking here. When a man chooses to bring children into this world that he cannot provide for, Scripture says some stiff things about him. These are not my words, they are God's. You asked for a verse and I gave it. You don't have to like it, but it is hard to deny it from an objective standpoint. Of course, you are not objective in this case.

 

I agree with all of these. They have nothing to do with anything we are discussing here.

 

When God strikes people dead for using contraseption I'll see the relevance of your statement. Until then, I think we've said everything there is to be said between us. </font>[/QUOTE]You don't have to reply, that's your option, however I am going to address what you said:

God doesn't strike everyone dead when they sin, otherwise EVERYONE would be dead because we are ALL sinners in some fashion or another.

We do have free will to choose right and wrong and we are allowed to choose to sin if we so desire. We will give an accounting at judgement.


LaRae

 

Your apostasy and disregard of God's word is well known here Ed. We have been round and round back in the days when I used to frequent this forum. What I found then was that you were totally unable to use Scripture, you were unable to explain even the simplest concepts from Scripture. You had given your mind to an institution that has disregarded God's word for 1500 years. That has not now changed. I don't assume that it will. It is unfortuante that the choices you made led you to the position. I sincerely hope that you will find repentance and a return to the truth before it is too late. I have given my life to the study of God's word and that is what has confirmed to me that the positions you hold are unbiblical and an affront to Christ and his true church. For you to openly attack me on this board is a gross mistake on your part. When you submit your mind to God's revelation, you will leave your ways. You don't have to agree with me on contraception. I really don't care. But I am not the authority, and your church is not the authority. The word of God is the authority.

What is unique in this discussion, is that no one from your side has offered a verse of Scripture that forbids it. The most you can say is, "Show us where it is permitted." That is argumentation of the worst kind. God gave us minds and hearts and common sense and he expects us to use it. Everyone who practices the rhythm method is de facto violating this ordinance you guys are holding up. The failure of thought is astounding here and it reminds me again why I very rarely participate.

 

Pastor Larry,

May God forgive you.

 

LaRae:
As I said, call an OBGYN and Planned Parenthood. I've read the literature about how the pill works and on PP website they even acknowledge that a woman can become pregnant on the pill and be unable to 'keep' the pregnancy due to how the pill works.

I've also talked to my OBGYN about it and he also concurs.


LaRae, I spent 2 entire months immersed in OB/Gyn in medical school and I have several friends who are OB/Gyns. Forgive me if I'm less than satisfied with your "take" on the literature.

I do not know of any literature (I am talking about scietific journals) that has evaluated this issue prospectively. There is good reason for that: it is difficult to enroll people who are trying not to get pregnant in a study of people who become pregnant (i.e., they aren't looking to be involved in such studies). For this reason, it is difficult to say that the pill makes it harder for you to keep a pregnancy once it occurs.

That said, if a pregnancy occurs, conditions in the uterus were obviously ideal at the time of implantation. (A personal note of correction is necessary here; after consulting my embryology text, I mistakenly said that the syncytiotrophoblast produces the progesterone when in reality it takes over after the 1st trimester, the corpus luteum [old follicle] is responsible for early progesterone production.) The source of progesterone is outside the uterus. At any rate, the truth is that they don't really know and there probably isn't any difference.

LaRae:
To say nothing of the other risk factors associated with the Pill.

And just what other "risk factors" are associated with the Pill?

There are some, I'll grant. For instance there is an increased incidence of deep venous thrombosis (DVT) but it is mainly in older smoking women. The jury is still out on breast cancer. However, it reduces the risk for ovarian cancer several fold. I said all that to say this, like any medicine OCPs have risks and benefits. Stressing the risks to slant the issue is poor form.

Finally, this is a straw man of sorts in the debate. The fundamental question isn't about the safety of modern contraception methods; it is whether or not contraception is sin. You can vilify the Pill, vasectomies, etc., but it doesn't make birth control (preconceptive) a sin.

 

He already has ...

 

Ed and I have been through this before. I have spoken kindly and with grace to him on many occasions. I have lovingly urged him to return to God's truth. Then he responds with a direct and outright attack against me. I cannot stand idly by while the truth is attacked and while someone's soul is in danger. We must confront error where it exists.

I have studied Catholicism and know very well its history and its teaching. That is why Christians for 1500 years have stood against its teachings and its traditions. You are the one with bias and prejudice. I have none. The problems with Catholic doctrine have been shown many times and have yet to be refuted. I know as much about the Catholic church and Catholic doctrine as you do. And being a student of Scripture, I have rejected it.

That was not a statement of arrogance or pride. It was a statement about the authority of Scripture vs. the authority of man's mind. Ed, you, and others, have decided to follow your own mind. In your thinking, the RCC is supreme and truthful. When the word of God becomes the authority, such notions are shown to be clearly wrong headed. But failure to submit one's mind to Scripture prevents one from seeing the errors of the RCC.

And herein lies the problem with the RCC. Their misinterpretation and false teaching have lead them to show themselves a false church. It is a return to God's word and its authority that is necessitated, not a blasting of those who hold God's word as the authority.

But something should be a principle of Scripture. This topic is not. There are many valid reasons for BC. If your conscience does not allow you to use it, then so be it. But do not misinterpret the word of God and insist on your personal preferences for others who have studied the word of God and come to a different conclusion on a matter that we both agree is not directly spoken about in Scripture.

There is a verse that explicitly forbids it. The Bible clearly teaches that murder is prohibited.

Then show it and make sure you don't twist it. So far, not one passage has been presented that does not involve twisting. As you said above, the word of God is not the authority when it is misused. That is your error here (as well as other places): You misuse Scripture and expect everyone else to bow to your interpretation. We reject your authority. We believe God's word in teh authority