A blasphemous error in the NIV

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by word_digger, Sep 27, 2003.

  1. word_digger

    word_digger
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    We are told to compare Scripture with Scripture to seek out truth. In so doing I have found a blasphemous error in the New International Version (NIV):

    In the King James Version (KJV), in the Book of Revelation, stands this verse:

    “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.” (Revelation 22:16 KJV)

    In the NIV the same verse reads:

    "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." (Revelation 22:16 NIV)

    Obviously the reference is to the Lord Jesus Christ and, in this particular verse, both versions are in agreement. Both are saying that the Lord Jesus Christ is the “morning star This is a title that belongs to the Lord.

    Now turn to the book of Isaiah in the NIV to chapter 14:12 and read that verse:

    “How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!” (Isaiah 14:12 NIV)

    Problem: The prophecy of this passage is speaking against the Devil, (Satan, Lucifer) and this is confirmed by the next verse:

    “For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:” (Isaiah 14:13 KJV)

    So, the literal wording of the NIV in Isaiah 14:12 makes the error of having the Spirit calling Satan the morning star which is the Lord’s rightful title.

    The KJV does NOT do this:

    “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” (Isaiah 14:12 KJV)

    Further, the KJV tells you plainly who the reference is directed against “O Lucifer” but this is omitted in the NIV.

    There is big difference in terminology between “morning star” and “son of the morning”. The former is a reference to the Lord Jesus and the latter is a reference to the Antichrist. Even if your replace “O Lucifer” with “O day-star” as was done in the ASV…

    “How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst lay low the nations!” (Isaiah 14:12 ASV)

    …the correct reference would be to “SON of the MORNING” NOT the “MORNING STAR”.

    The facts are clear: The New International Version, comparing “Scripture with Scripture” is saying that Satan and Jesus are one and the same. That is what the NIV literal wording in Isaiah 14:12 implies. And that is as wrong as things can be. Therefore, if the New International Version is inaccurate in this verse, are you willing to trust it as the “Word of God” elsewhere? Please think about this prayerfully.
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    The word of the day is METAPHOR:

    METAPHOR - a figure of speech containing an implied comparison
    in which a word or phrase ordinarily and primarily
    used of one thing is applied to another

    One thing people need to learn about prophetic writings,
    they are full of figures of speech and retorical techniques.

    Consider the following:
    Venus
    Morning Star
    Day Star
    Evening Star
    Light Bringer
    Lucifer

    All these descriptions and name refer to the same object:
    the second planet from the son in the solar system.
    Venus is also a Roman god. But we don't talk much about
    Roman gods anymore, but any student of the skys knows
    the second planet, Venus.
    Morning Star - the planet Venus when it preceeds the sun in the sky
    Day Star - the planet Venus, when away from the sun a bit
    can be seen both day and night
    Evening Star - the planet Venus when it flows the sun in the sky
    Light Bringer - the planet venus as the Morning Star,
    for you see it just before the day's light, the Sun
    Lucifer - a personification of Light Bringer

    I do not construe that it is a "blasphemous error" to use
    the same metaphor for Jesus and Satan.
    Satan is always going to imitate Jesus:
    Jesus is real, Satan is a phony.

    Having said that, i have somewhat against you
    Word_digger:

    1. Your scripture references are hard to follow.
    You cite "KJV". I have on my desk (the one upon which
    my computer resides) three books each labeled
    "King James Version" (KJV):

    They are specifically:
    KJV1611
    KJV1769
    KJV1873
    They are all different one from the other.

    It really is a pain for me to have to flip through
    three different paper books to see if you have correctly
    cited a particular scripture. Thank you for helping
    me in the future.

    2. I do not take kindly to people saying my
    New International Bible (NIB) contains a blasphemous error
    in it. This is runing down one of my favorite Bibles.
    It is unkind, if not a sin, to demean my inerrant Holy Bible: the NIB.
    Thank you for your future lack of desecration of
    my Holy NIB.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    [Mock]We are told to compare Scripture with Scripture
    to seek out truth. In so doing I have found a blasphemous error
    in the King James Version 1611 (KJV1611):

    Reuelation XXII:16 (KJV1611):
    I Iesus have sent mine Angel, to
    testifie vnto you these things in the
    Churches. I am the roote and the offspring
    of Dauid, and the bright and morning starre.

    From this we can see that Iesus
    ("Yeshua" in Hebrew) is the morning starre.

    Ifaiah XIV:12 (KJV1611)
    How are though fallen from heauen,
    ||O lucifer, sonee of the morning? how
    art thou cut downe to the ground,
    which didst weaken the nations?

    Sidenote: || Or, O daystarre

    Ifaiah XIV:12 (KJV1611, alternate)
    How are though fallen from heauen,
    ||O daystarre, sonee of the morning? how
    art thou cut downe to the ground,
    which didst weaken the nations?

    This cleary calls Satan the "daystarre" and
    "sonne of the morning", both titles reserved for
    our blessed Lord and Savior: Messiah Iesus.

    The facts are clear: The Authorized Version (AV),
    the King James Version (KJV) of 1611, comparing “Scripture
    with Scripture” is saying that Satan and Jesus are one
    and the same. That is what the KJV1611AV literal wording
    in Isaiah 14:12 implies. And that is as wrong as things can be.
    Therefore, if the King James Version is inaccurate in this verse,
    are you willing to trust it as the “Word of God” elsewhere?
    Please think about this prayerfully.
    [/mock]

    I've typed this argument several times, this is
    the first time i recall noting that the REAL AUTHORIZED
    VERSION, the KJV1611 has two retorical questions,
    the KJV1769 has no question marks but has two "!".

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  4. Taufgesinnter

    Taufgesinnter
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    word_digger, the KJV says the same thing essentially as the NIV in the margin. The KJV translators considered it an acceptable rendering, so what's your beef?
     
  5. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
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    ah, but no blasphemy, izzit, when the KJB associates the Messiah fr the Tribe of Judah w the LION, a clear symbol of Satan.

    :rolleyes:
     
  6. Archangel7

    Archangel7
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    Two comments.

    (1) Consider these passages:

    "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring *lion*, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Pet. 5:8, KJV)

    "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the *Lion* of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." (Rev. 5:5, KJV)

    Does this mean that the KJV, comparing "Scripture with Scripture," is saying that the devil and Jesus are one and the same? And does this constitue a "blasphemous error" in the KJV? [​IMG]

    (2) Consider this verse:

    "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the *morning stars* sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job. 38:6-7, KJV)

    Does this mean that the KJV, comparing "Scripture with Scripture," is saying that Jesus is one among many "morning stars," and that there's more than one God? Does this constitute a "blasphemous error" in the KJV? [​IMG]

    A suggestion when comparing Scripture with Scripture -- take the CONTEXT into consideration. It's amazing how many "blasphemous errors" in *any* English Bible version disappear when one reads them in context.
     
  7. BrianT

    BrianT
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    "word_digger"???? You obviously didn't dig very deep.

    I'm too tired to respond point by point *again* to this popular but erroneous charge against the NIV. Instead, see http://www.tegart.com/brian/bible/kjvonly/isa14_12.html .
     
  8. Ransom

    Ransom
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    word_digger, could you please dig up the rule that says when a figure of speech is applied to a person, it can never be applied again by anyone to somebody else? Thanks.
     
  9. Askjo

    Askjo
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    You quote, "If the devil is a lion, is Jesus Christ also a lion as well? Are they one and the same?"

    You are so mistaken! Look at the KJV! Look at 2 words: "A" and "THE." Are they same? Absolutely not! The devil is as "a roaring lion." Jesus is the Lion of ..." The Scripture said that the devil is "AS" a roaring lion. It also stated that Jesus IS the Lion. Look at first letter of lion -- capital letter "L"ion and other is little l --"l"ion.
     
  10. Ransom

    Ransom
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    So . . . you were saying?

    [​IMG] . . [​IMG]
    . [​IMG] [​IMG] .
    . [​IMG] [​IMG] .
    [​IMG] . . [​IMG]
     
  11. word_digger

    word_digger
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    And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. (2 Peter 1:18 NIV)

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Taufgesinnter

    Taufgesinnter
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    And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. (2 Peter 1:18 NIV)

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]So you're attacking the NIV editors for agreeing with the KJV editors? OK, got it. :rolleyes:
     
  13. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
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    1. in the Gk, of course, there isn't punctuation (caps or nonCAPS).

    2. do u know the difference between a metonymy n a simile? r u arguing that one is a figure of speech n the other isn't? what r u implying abt the Incarnation--that it went beyond the human species into the animal? :rolleyes:

    o the new heresies that KJBOism spawns as it goes!

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Ransom

    Ransom
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    word_digger made the following irrelevant observation:

    And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. (2 Peter 1:18 NIV)

    </font>
    1. It was Askjo, not me, who claimed a difference between a capitalized metaphor and a non-capitalized one. I was merely pointing out his double standard by throwing his own argument in his face. Throwing it back at me refutes no point that I have made.</font>
    2. You still haven't told us why a metaphor can only ever apply to one single person. Until you establish that rule, any argument about the NIV confusing Jesus and Satan is null and void, period.</font>
    Finally, God says in Hosea 5:14: "I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah" (KJV). Now we're back to the KJV confusing Yahweh and Satan again.

    So . . . you were saying?

    . [​IMG] . . [​IMG]
    [​IMG] . . . . [​IMG]
    [​IMG] . . . . [​IMG]
    . [​IMG] . . [​IMG]

    [ September 29, 2003, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Ransom ]
     

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