A Calvinists Nightmare

Maybe I should have added "...during the invitation."

You know how it is. Some poor guy's sitting there sweating it out, thinking about entering, and then he gets hindered when the invitation ends.

 

What is the purpose of this thread?

 

Whoa! Hinder doesn't necessarily mean that they were permanently prevented from entering.

[ November 04, 2005, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

Predestination is to salvation. If these people were actually predestined to enter, then they will finally enter, no matter what is done by forces outside of them to try to keep them from entering.

 

And Calvinism doesn't say that progress is never reversed. Just that God completes the work he starts.

The Pharisees had proselytes they caused to be worse than they were. Nothing is a "done deal" before we're born. Everything is worked out in time by human means.

 

No, it doesn't. God did not do anything to make anyone a child of hell. Anyone who is a child of hell is that way by God's permission, and not because God made them.

 

...[/QUOTE]Predestination is to salvation.
\

Not in my Bible. In Eph.1 it goes to INHERITANCE which is post Salvation, and Adoption, which, according to the fact that we are saved is something that becomes our lawful status (beloved we are now the sons of God), and in Rom.8 predestination goes to being "conformed to the image" of our saviour...post salvation. Why is all this so? Because God, who has always been there where I chose to believe on him, because of my choosing him, has chosed me....THEN AFTER the choosing (ELECTION), he Predestinates. He can do this before the foundation of the world because he is not constrained by time...the same reason (rev13:8) that Christ was slain BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD (same words...same meaning). Calvary occurred "in the dispensation of time" for man, but God was, is, and always will be there. The nature of the OMNIPRESENCE of God as CLEARLY deliniated in scripture makes Calvinism a ridiculous notion. My God is SOOOOO much bigger than that!

 

russell55,

And do you think that the non-elect are going to gladly walk into the Lake of Fire?

If angels escort them to Hell then I am sure you would agree that these angels are ministering for the Lord.

The other option is that God Himself might place them in the place that His holiness and justice demands.

 

No it isn't. It's part of salvation.

Which is also part of being saved.

Also part of salvation.

In Romans 8, predestination is not only to being conformed, but also to calling, justification and glorification.

 

Absolutely. I was using "child of hell" in the way I think it's used in the scripture MO referred to--"a person who belongs in hell."

In other words, God sends deserving people to hell, but he doesn't make them into the sort of people who belong in hell.

 

No it isn't. It's part of salvation.

Which is also part of being saved.

Also part of salvation.

OK, I guess its to much to ask to have someone READ the text and stay in the context. Because God foreknew (ROM.8) that I would BELIEVE FIRST (Eph1:4-14), and he could do this because HE IS UNCONSTRAINED BY TIME (something Abraham new, but the Calvinist doesn't get), he was hence able to Predestinate me (post-salvation) to final Sanctification...which will not and cannot happen in this body...so we know it is POST SALVATION (read justification). Moreover we see that those who were predestinated were also first called (elected, chosen Eph 1:4, Acts 13:48), and then Justified (THIS IS SALVATION)...and in our future, but (get this) in God's present (because all time is always God's present) we will also be glorified (post-salvation).

Adoption happens as a RESULT of Justification. And make no mistake, Redemption was provided because God was propitiated. We must have a propitiated God in order to be saved....but PROPITIATION does not save you. We must be redeemed...but redemption cannot complete the work. There must be an atonement to make eternal salvation possible, BUT you are only saved because you are JUSTIFIED (to be legally declared in the present possession of the RIGHTEOUSNESS of GOD). Righteousness is the standard. All else rides on Justification. Adoption and Predestination are two of its results and are POST SALVATION (JUSTIFICATION), just as Grace, Mercy (propitiation), and Redemption must PRECEDE Justification. Inheritance is also post salvation...in fact it is post-adoption, because under Roman law (which is the adoption the Bible is talking about), the adopted son becomes a LEGAL PART of the family, and immediately is LEGALLY ACOUNTED a FULL INHERITANCE as a BLOOD BORN SON! It is not a disorganized soup...It is a MACHINE which God built to protect me from his hatred for sin and his immeasurable wrath. It is very organized and works just like gears, it all fits together.

In Romans 8, predestination is not only to being conformed, but also to calling, justification and glorification. </font>[/QUOTE]Huh? Wow...it's all just in a big Calvinistic bowl of gobledygoop!

 

Predestination is to salvation.
\

Not in my Bible. In Eph.1 it goes to INHERITANCE which is post Salvation, and Adoption, which, according to the fact that we are saved is something that becomes our lawful status (beloved we are now the sons of God), and in Rom.8 predestination goes to being "conformed to the image" of our saviour...post salvation. Why is all this so? Because God, who has always been there where I chose to believe on him, because of my choosing him, has chosed me....THEN AFTER the choosing (ELECTION), he Predestinates. He can do this before the foundation of the world because he is not constrained by time...the same reason (rev13:8) that Christ was slain BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD (same words...same meaning). Calvary occurred "in the dispensation of time" for man, but God was, is, and always will be there. The nature of the OMNIPRESENCE of God as CLEARLY deliniated in scripture makes Calvinism a ridiculous notion. My God is SOOOOO much bigger than that! [/QUOTE]

That was so good I wanted to look at the profile of the person that wrote this-well done!
Sorry russell 55. This is one thing that the Calvinist' has a problem in grasping-the fact that predestination has nothing, nothing to do with salvation. It is God setting a goal for the believer, whoever that believer is.

 

In the OP the idea is proposed that this text might keep Calvinists "thinking at night" trying to resolve the "details" of what it says with the errors and flaws of Calvinism.

To which we see this classic answer --

So the answer is -

#1. Calvinists don't think about it.

#2. Calvinists don't know where it is so they have no problem with it!!

I love it!

In Christ,

Bob

 

How can a person with Free-will be hindered by men?

I thought it was that God nor Satan could hinder Free-will!

LOL

It has to be those menacing sovereign men again!

KJB

 

Of course this would not be "the only problem" that would keep a thinking Calvinists up at night from Matt 23!

This is "again" the kind of God that Calvinists accuse Arminians of worshipping. One who says "How OFTEN I WANTED... but YOU WOULD not!"

In Christ,

Bob

 

ACtually Bob, too bad you didn't keep reading. Because my very next post on page 1 said I have thought about it a lot, even before this, So quite clearly, you said something that wasn't true, and you said it becuase you didn't read close enough, or didn't like what you read so you ignored it. Either way, that was wrong. Please do not do that.

Secondly, there are several passages in the Bible which say the type of thing that Mark was referring to. He himself pointed out two of them. I was merely asking which passage he was referring to so that we could look at the actual wording of the passage.

Therefore, your complaints are seen to be invalid on both counts. Why didn't you take the time to see what was said? Is that really asking too much for you to be honest and ethical with the other sides arguments?

You were going to get deleted, but I decided to use this post as an example of some of the things that won't be tolerated.

No one will be allowed to misrepresent another's position when it has been clearly stated. When you said "Calvinists don't think about it," it was false. I very clearly stated that I had thought about it. You should not have said that.

Help raise the level of this discussion. Do not drag it down. We have enough of that already.

 

Watchman said: This is one thing that the Calvinist' has a problem in grasping-the fact that predestination has nothing, nothing to do with salvation. It is God setting a goal for the believer, whoever that believer is.

Presestination is part of God's decree! It may be to election and it may be to reprobation. God determines this before the foundation of the world as so stated in Ephesians 1:3-6
John Calvin said: " The Word of God is the only norm for our dealing with predestination and if this thought provails that the Word of the Lord is the sole way that can lead us in our search for all that is lawful to hold concerning him, and is the sole light to illumine our vision of all that we should see of him, it will readily keep and restrain us from all rashness." He taught the principle of Scriptura tota and Scriptura sola, the whole scripture and nothing but the scripture. Man must teach all that God revealed, including predestination. But he must not go beyone Scripture, speculating where God has not revealed. We can have no finer attitude to follow that this expressed by Calvin.(excerpt The Five Points of Calvinism by Edwin H. Palmer)
Never forget that calvinists worship and follow a sovereign God, sovereign in all realms of life and totally follow scripture in doing so!! Unless your comments are from scripture then dont tell us what we think!!
Blessings,

 

Where does Romans 8 say "because God knew I would believe first"? It says "whom he foreknew". It says predestination is based on foreknowing people, not that certain people would believe. You are reading words into the text.

In scripture, the word isn't used to mean mere "foresight" in regards to God. In Romans 11 when Paul says God foreknew Israel, it doesn't mean that he knew beforehand that they would choose to be his people, does it? It means that he had a relationship with them beforehand.

Of course he's unconstrained by time. Time itself originated in God's creative imagination. He stands outside of time, separate from it, and everything that time holds (people, places, events, choices, etc) originates in Him. God doesn't take in information about his creation, and that seems to be what you're suggesting. It isn't that he couldn't, but that he isn't constrained in that way, because he's the originator of it all.

Here's an example from real life: It seems that you are saying that God is kind of like someone who works in the movie industry who holds all the storyboards of a movie, and can see them all at once, so he knows what's going to happen. And this is true, as far as it goes, but it doesn't go far enough. God is also the creative one who wrote the movie and drew up the story boards. He doesn't take in info from the storyboards because he doesn't have to, since they came from him and his creative mind in the first place.

It is a quite an unorthodox thought, it seems to me, to have the creator God constrained to taking in information from his creation.

Inheritance is the final step in the salvation process: