A Christian who is not in the Bride

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by PrimePower7, Aug 26, 2005.

  1. PrimePower7

    PrimePower7
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    So, what do you all think of this possiblity? I know a pastor whom I respect very much...he just preached a message this past Sunday in which he said a believer who is carnal and does not provide His own robes of righteousness will not be in the marriage supper of the Lamb.

    He used Revelation 19 for his proof text.

    What do you think?
     
  2. Frogman

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    I know a pastor whom I also respect who believes the same thing.

    Not so strongly, as it appears of this man you speak of, that members must provide their own righteousness.

    I am inclined to believe there is some truth in this. I am a landmark baptist, so I believe being in the Bride is relational to proper baptism, authority, etc. However, I can see how churches may fall away and out of the bride and perhaps there is a degree of truth on the individual level.

    What do you think Christ meant by stating to the following:

    What are the 'works' being spoken of? Do you think this pertains to the church standing in the faith once delivered to the saints and continuing faithfully in the commission until the return of the Lord?

    Then, how would this apply to those who really make up the local visible church? If the particular church could fall away from it's position in the bride, couldn't the individual member do likewise? Is not the church composed of individual members?

    Just some thoughts.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  3. Johnv

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    Presuming the carnality is to the level of sinfulness, a believer who is carnal is no more or less a sinner than anyone else, and is no more or less worthy of entering the kingdom than anyone else. Such a person is no less saved when he is born again than any other believer. My understanding is that the marriage supper of the Lamb is for all believers. So, I'd venture that the pastor is wrong.
     
  4. Petrel

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    Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:

    "Hallelujah!
    For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
    Let us rejoice and be glad
    and give him glory!
    For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
    and his bride has made herself ready.
    Fine linen, bright and clean,
    was given her to wear."

    (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)


    The bride is the Church, the body of all believers. The fine linen is the sum of the righteous acts of the saints.

    This passage is not speaking about individual Christians, so I don't think you can draw the conclusion that a carnal believer will be booted out. Interpreting it that way implies that there isn't one bride, but billions of brides. [​IMG]
     
  5. PrimePower7

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    Yeah, I agree, Petrel, considering the mystery of Ephesians 5 states the church is the bride.

    Incidentally, Frogman, I am not a Landmarker, though I used to be. In my opinion, the problem with this idea being in the kingdom without being in the church is the same problem this pastor friend of mine using parables in Matthew 22 and Matthew 25 and applying them to the church. However, the bride of Christ is not mentioned in either passage, only guests and virgins (which are in the wedding processional)

    Also, the very idea that there is no universal church made up of all believers denies the idea of being baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ (I Cor 12:13) and the reality of the church of the firstborn which is "written" (not assembled) in Heaven. (Hebrews 12:23) Thirdly, it is a denial of the truth that all believers are "gathered" (or assembled) in Christ (Ephesians 1:10)

    Thanks for your feedback.
     
  6. StraightAndNarrow

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    By this are you simply saying that faith without works is dead? And that a one-time believer who rejects Christ will not enter into the Kingdom. If so, I agree with him. Look at the long thread on OSAS.
     
  7. Frogman

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    Your welcome. I didn't say I fully agreed with the ideas.

    I agree with what has been said, there is but one bride. I do believe this body will be made up of scriptural NT 'churches'.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  8. James_Newman

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    Where did Adam's bride come from? She came out of his side. His whole body was not his bride. In the same sense, Jesus, the second Adam, will recieve His bride out of his body. But the whole body will not be the bride. So all Christians make up the body, but the bride will be made up of the believers who have made themselves ready. See the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, and notice that they are all virgins and are all waiting for the bridegroom. Some of them are out of oil, though.
     
  9. PrimePower7

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    Ok, Frogman, first of all, we do not agree as you said, that is reductionism at its best. We are not saying the same thing. There is a grand difference between all true churches being part of the bride and the church itself (made up of all who have been baptized by the Spirit 1 Cor 12:13)being the bride.

    Bro Newman,
    I think typology is a wonderful thing until we make it our basis for doctrine on every point. I would almost love your example if it weren't for Ephesians 5 saying the church IS the bride.

    Secondly, the parable you mentioned in Matthew 25 does not mention a bride. Where in middle east culture do you hear of a bridegroom coming to marry 10 virgins at one time? Those are members of the wedding processional.

    Thanks
     
  10. PrimePower7

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    Bro. Straight and Narrow,
    My dear brother, that is not what I am saying. I believe the believer is sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30
     
  11. Frogman

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    Thanks StraightandNarrow,

    Where in Scripture does the Holy Spirit baptize?

    Baptism is immersion, down into, up out of, and not pouring out onto.

    Definitely straight and narrow, that's for sure.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  12. James_Newman

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    Ephesians 5 doesn't say that the church is the bride, it says we are the body. Nevertheless, you do get an idea that the bride and the body are connected. If you want to say that in this picture the church is the bride, so be it. However, in Revelation 21, the bride is the city New Jerusalem. This city is adorned with the righteousness of the saints. So these are not the same picture.

    What does Ephesians say of the church?
    Ephesians 5:25-27
    25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
    26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
    27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

    The church that He is going to present to Himself is going to be pure and spotless.

    2 Peter 3:13-14
    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
    14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

    Matthew 13:41-43
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    The virgins are a different picture showing the same thing. Some Christians will be ready when the Lord returns, some will not. You can't say that the virgins are not Christians because we are the bride, that is a different picture. In another picture, we are like branches on a vine. All those branches that do not bring forth fruit are cut off and cast into the fire. You can't say that we are not branches because we are virgins. Different picture. Same truth.

    The Lord wants us to be watching and praying, and making ourselves ready for His return, and He is serious about it.
     
  13. StraightAndNarrow

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    I don't understand how anyone can provide their own "robes of rightousness." The marriage supper ofthe Lamb is Heaven. We are saved through Grace by faith into a personal relationship with Christ. I believe that if we initially accept Him as Lord an Savior and later reject Him, however, the conseqences will be dire as stated in the following scripture.

    Heb. 10:26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
    27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
    28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
    29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
     
  14. bigczardaddy

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    the bride has nothing to do with individual righteousness. the bride of revelation is the true church. well the members of the true church throughout the ages all the way back to Jesus Christ and the first church made up of 12 men.

    the true church is the church that retained and lives by Christs teachings completly.

    sorry protestants thats not u.
     
  15. StraightAndNarrow

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    I don't understand your post. I didn't say anything about baptism. I was talking about genuine faith. Please explain.
     
  16. StraightAndNarrow

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    Reread the first post. It says nothing about the bride of Christ. It talks about a "carnal believer" and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb which means Heaven.
     
  17. Petrel

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    The point of the sermon was that the Bride in Rev. 19 is clothed with white linen representing the good works of the saints. The sermon said that carnal Christians who can't provide good works will not be part of the Bride.

    "Hallelujah!
    For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
    Let us rejoice and be glad
    and give him glory!
    For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
    and his bride has made herself ready.
    Fine linen, bright and clean,
    was given her to wear
    ."

    (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)


    One might try to make a case that carnal Christians will not be at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, but it cannot be made using this passage.
     
  18. StraightAndNarrow

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  19. Frogman

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    dear StraightAndNarrow,
    I must have misunderstood your original post, then over reacted. Sorry for misrepresenting what you said.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  20. superdave

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    Anyone who thinks they have to bring their own robes of righteousness is probably not a christian. Not meaning any disrespect, but our righteousness is as filthy rags. Those who have been clothed in the righteousness of Christ will be at the marriage supper to wed their bridegroom.
     

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