A Civil Discussion about the Origin of Sin

See some of the early posts in this thread, I shared several excerpts for Kenneth Keathly's book, Salvation and Sovereignty. Admittedly I am trusting in the academic integrity that he is accurately quoting Sproul Jr.

 

"God rules as surely on earth as he does in heaven. He permits, for reasons known only to himself, people to act contrary to and in defiance of His revealed will. But he never permits them to act contrary to His sovereign will."

Jerry Bridges, from "Trusting God even when it hurts"

 

Me too.

The bible is quite clear that our sin originates within ourselves. Satan's sin originated within himself. Any other view is attributing sin to God and I agree with glfredrick that it is blasphemy to claim that.

 

God causes it by removing his goodness just like I cause darkness by turning off the light.

I will for the room to be dark. I have a purpose for the room to be dark. I bring to pass the room becoming dark.

But I do not create darkness.

God is, Edwards says, "the permitter . . . of sin; and at the same time, a disposer of the state of events, in such a manner, for wise, holy and most excellent ends and purposes, that sin, if it be permitted . . . will most certainly and infallibly follow."

I think I have.

I did answer that question. I do not know what else to do. Explain what about that answer that I gave does not satisfy you and I will try to further elaborate.

I think I have answered this. Nothing originates with any being but God.

Lam 3:37-38 Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?

A far, far worse crime than Jeffry Dahmer ever committed was the mutilation and murder of the innocent Son of God. That thought originated with God but the motives for the event coming to pass are very different between God and Pilate's crowd.

But in order to entrap me in this you need me to admit that they are exactly the same which they are obviously not- few things are. But they do not need to be to prove this point- God ordains evil.

 

Where?

______

 

Civil discussion....lol

Knowing this group.....lol.....more like the Civil War :tonofbricks:

OK let me start reading.....you talk/fight amongst yourselves LOL

 

I would agree with Edwards' idea. However, and again, it isn't that cut and dry. There is some type of causation, but not in an evil or sinful way.

Do I think God put the thought in Lucifer's mind? No. But, if God--as the Bible says--works all things according to the council of His will then it is not as simple as Lucifer "going rogue."

There are things at work here that we are not privy to.

It would almost seem as if you are arguing for a Star Wars understanding of the light side and the dark side of the force (there...I did it...I brought Star Wars into a theological discussion). Perhaps, you are taking the yin-yang concept of good and evil that suggest they are two equal forces fighting for dominance.

The biblical concept of evil (or sin) is that which goes against God's will. Lucifer certainly did that; Adam and Eve certainly did that too. All of us do that. But, sin is, basically, rooted in self-idolatry and is therefore rebellion against God.

So, evil is not necessarily some tangible thing that can be tasted, felt, smelled, or touched. It is, rather, something that exists in opposition to God Himself.

The Archangel

 

James 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

 

That idea doesn't accurately represent Edwards' thoughts on the matter either.

Permission is only part of the whole in Edwards' mind.

God is, Edwards says, "the permitter . . . of sin; and at the same time, a disposer of the state of events, in such a manner, for wise, holy and most excellent ends and purposes, that sin, if it be permitted . . . will most certainly and infallibly follow."

 

No one is arguing that God tempts people to sin.

 

Haven't you been saying that God is the cause of evil? The verses I posted shows that evil is in the heart and mind of man. God does not put it there.

 

But Luke, surely you can see how "we" understand it when you claim that God determines and ordains everything. Then this appears to contradict this principle put forth in James. Do you share Luther's desire to deny James from the canon of scripture? (or was that Augustine, sorry dont remember which one)

 

Yes, it will inevitably lead to his stumbling.

Yes, it does. You may be getting tired of seeing Edwards on the matter but he is considered to be the greatest theological and philosophical mind in American history and this is one of his areas of expertise.

He uses the analogy of the way the sun brings about light and warmth by its essential nature, but brings about dark and cold by dropping below the horizon. "If the sun were the proper cause of cold and darkness," he says, "it would be the fountain of these things, as it is the fountain of light and heat: and then something might be argued from the nature of cold and darkness, to a likeness of nature in the sun." In other words, "sin is not the fruit of any positive agency or influence of the most High, but on the contrary, arises from the withholding of his action and energy, and under certain circumstances, necessarily follows on the want of his influence."

It depends on what you mean when you say "author". If you mean immediate then it does not implicate God no more than the sun setting is the immediate cause of cold and dark. If you mean ultimate then, yes.


These Scriptures that you have heretofore ignored make this clear.

I request that you go back and deal with them.

Sounds like Calvinism. This is compatabalism.

But what you must realize is that he INTENDS for these things to come to pass. He has a cause for them. He uses men doing what they want to do to fulfill his will.

Lam 3:37-38 Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?

Part of this is compatabalism which is true to Scripture. The other part, the last couple of sentences is wrong as I have shown FROM Scripture.

We do not need to KNOW the purposes of God for why he ordains what he ordains. We just need to trust his Word and his perfect nature.

His Word is clear:

Exod 4:11 Then the Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?

Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isa 45:5-7 I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides Me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides Me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.


What you and I must do is what Daniel instructs us here:

Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and He does according to His will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, “What have you done?”

 

It is not my claim. It is the claim of the Word of God repeatedly in passages like this one:

Lam 3:37-38 Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?

 

This passage is not concerned with God’s cosmic sovereign activity; it is specifically addressing prophecy. Both “good and bad” prophecies (viz. prophecies about blessings and disaster) come “from the mouth of the Most High.” Jeremiah is saying this to confront people who only want to believe that prophecies about blessing are from God.

 

That is Job's take on it. That is not what the Scriptures say about God.

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. (Job 1:12)
--These are the Lord's actual words, not simply Job's opinion. They are words of God giving Satan permission to afflict Job. Thus you are misinterpreting the Scripture.

So? I have not blasphemed God either, and have been in some difficult situations. This argument is a red herring. It is God that gave permission to Satan to afflict Job, and Job rightly did not blame God.

Satan is. Nothing occurs without God's permission. God allowed Satan to afflict Job. Job cannot understand all that goes on in heaven. His perception may be off a bit.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)
--And so it was with Job; as it is with you also. Neither one of us have a complete understanding of the ways of God. Neither did Job.

God does not create evil, and did not create evil for Job. He allowed Satan to do evil to Job. It is terrible how you attribute evil to a just and holy God who will not countenance sin.

Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he? (Habakkuk 1:13)

No, I am not kidding. Nothing good comes from a terrorist. Or were in you in favor of the Muslim attack on the WTC. This was good in your sight. This was God's will, as they say it was Allah's will. Fatalism!

There are the words that Joseph used. They are accurately inspired or recorded by God.
There are the words that his brothers used--accurately inspired or recorded by God.
Then there is the will of God.
What was the will of God. It was not quite the way that Joseph expressed it. God used the circumstances created by his brothers that led to the imprisonment of Joseph and finally the exaltation of Joseph for His glory. That is more accurately put.
The brothers will still give account for their sin. They will stand before God and they will be judged. It was not God's will that they should inflict terror on their brother. All the evil brought upon Joseph was not God's will. Evil is never God's will. Having said that, God can use that evil, and turn it so that it will bring praise and honor to His name. But it still will be evil, and someone will still give account for it.

The wrath of man will praise Him.
All things work together for them that love him, for them that are called according to his purpose.

Are you the boss of God? God has need of nothing. He is God. If he needed anything at all he would not be God. Mark your words, "Egypt is required by God's words to Abraham..." God can use whatever means he wants.
As it was, Joseph suffered in Egypt and then was elevated to a position of authority. Suffering is a key element in the Christian life today. It is God's will that the Christian suffer (Phil. 1:29). What has that to do with this discussion. People have suffered ever since Adam was created. That is a fact of life. It is part of the curse.

God allows evil, not decrees evil. If he decrees or ordains evil, then God is no better than Allah. He allowed the brothers to badly treat Joseph. And those actions ultimately ended up in glorifying God. But God was not condoning the actions of the brothers. He is not the author of sin.

To say that God authors and ordains sin is in err. He doesn't. It is a fatalistic doctrine and puts God as vindictive and cruel.

This is exactly the case. In Islam it is called "Kismet," or fatalism. It is one of their basic tenets. I know you don't like the comparison. But that is what it is once you have God ordaining evil. He does not ordain or decree evil. He allows it.

I believe my position, not yours, is orthodox. God permits or allows evil as he did in Job's case. God's words, not Job's are accurate. For you to say that God determines and ordains evil beforehand is pure unadulterated fatalism. I do not believe in Open Theism. Neither do I believe in Fatalism or a fatalistic God.