A close look at Rom 11 !

If National Israel was "broken off" of "elect Israel", meaning that the olive tree is elect Israel, then National Israel BEFORE it was broken off was part of "ELECT" Israel. Hence, what was "ELECT" became lost and rejected by God according to your line of logic.

What you are spiritually blind to is that Paul clearly teaches that it is exactly and precisely what was "broken off" that shall be grafted back in "again" (v. 23). Remnant Israel has NEVER BEEN BROKEN OFF just like Gentiles nations HAVE NEVER BEEN BROKEN OFF and so it cannot be remnant Israel that is grafted in "again."

Furthermore, the grafting in again, the receiving again, the reconciliation of that which was rejected by God (broken off) does not occur during this PRESENT age and will not as Paul explicitly says it cannot happen "UNTIL THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN" - v. 25

The Israel that will be grafted in "again" or reconciled, brought back to life, their ungodliness turned, their sins remitted only AFTER Christ returns from heaven - vv. 26-27. The future tense repudiate your attempt to place in the past at Calvary!

There is no possible HONEST way you can turn the "shall" FUTURE tenses in Romans 11:26-28 into PAST tenses.

All who have been following this discussion know you must either actively pervert, change, or ignore what God's Word explicitly and clearly states just as you have been consistently doing since Romans 9:1 to the very verse you are now at. I am not a betting man but I think you will end up doing a combination of all the above. You will pervert Romans 11:25-28 most likely by dissecting and seaprating each statement from the preceding and foregoing statements AND ignoring the tenses, grammatical antecedents and even what it actually says because you are so demonically led in this matter (1 Tim. 4:1-3) you could care less about the truth. You claim to be a Christian but you have proven to be a dishonest man.

However, Paul does not follow your illogical rationale.

 

First, you identified the "root" in Romans 11 as Christ not Abraham. Hence, all the tree is IN CHRIST. - NO CHILDREN OF THE FLESH here

Then you identified the rest of the tree as THE ELECT REMNANT - thus all elect in Christ. - NO CHILDREN OF THE FLESH HERE!

Now, you have the vast majority of the branches of those IN CHRIST (the root) and say they were broken off OF THE ELECT REMNANT IN CHRIST as ELECT CHILDREN OF THE FLESH!

Soooo, you beleive that ISRAEL AS A NATION share in the same ELECTION with Christ, the remnant, elect Gentiles but are BROKEN OFF from that election. You believe in an election of CHILDREN OF THE FLESH and ELECTION IN CHRIST, IN REMNANT ISRAEL! ELECT CHILDREN OF THE FLESH who have been ELECT IN CHRIST that have been EQUAL ELECT BRANCHES with the ELECT REMNANT but have been BROKEN OFF!

Hence, Christ has not been broken off, the elect remnant have not been broken off, the gentiles had never been grafted in previously and so they are not broken off - ONLY ELECT ISRAEL AS NATION have been broken off!

Paul makes it clear that it is what was "BROKEN OFF" that will be gafted back in AGAIN! Paul makes it clear that what was "BROKEN OFF" is what will be reconciled. Paul make it clear that what was "BROKEN OFF" is what will be RECEIVED AGAIN. Paul makes it clear that what was BROKEN OFF" is what will be restored from death. Paul makes it clear that what was "BROKEN OFF" is what will be "saved"!

Christ the root was never BROKEN OFF.
Remnant Israel the branches were never BROKEN OFF
The Gentiles were grafted in so they were never BROKEN OFF
Only Israel as an ELECT NATION has been BROKEN OFF

Futhermore, all this reception, restoration, salvation, remission of what was BROKEN OFF is all placed in the FUTURE TENSE at the Second Advent of Christ and not at his first advent or the cross of Christ!!


All you have done is twisted the scripture to fit your HALF TRUTH!

 

So, now you are taking an entirely different context (Jn 15) which does not have anything to do with the subject of Romans 11 and you are attempting to use it to force Romans 11 to read the way you want it to read!!! John 15 is about how to have your "joy" remain full, and about producing "fruit" in your SERVICE for God as already "cleansed" (v. 3) or born again people of God while Romans 11 has to do with the redemptive plan of God for nations between the first and second advents.

What is the "true" Israel of God? Is that all the elect in Christ in all ages? OR is that a mixture of NON-elect and Elect but all are still IN CHRIST? I thought the only way anyone could be "in Christ" is by election before the world began but you have those AFTER THE FLESH - the NON-elect being "in Christ" the "true vine" and in the "true Israel" of God!

Make up your mind, either the vine is the TRUE Israel of God or it is not! It cannot be at one and the same time the TRUE and the FALSE Israel of God! Are you now espousing a DOUBLE ELECTION "in Christ"???

This analogy of the the vine has nothing to do with salvation but with sanctification or the prouducing of fruit in the saved. Those in this vine have been already "cleansed" (v. 3) in regard to salvation, thus salvation or regeneration is not the issue here. The issue in this analogy is fruit production as he is directing this to the regenerate. This is about having fullness of joy not entrance into heaven. This is about here and now not heaven. This is about being pruned by God to yeild more fruit not about how to be saved.

You are doing exactly what I predicted you would do. You are attempting to use outside scriptures from different contexts to force your interpretation upon Romans 11 at the expense of the tenses, grammar, antecedents and immediate context of Romans 11.

 

Readers,

Here is the primary problem with SBG's method of interpretation. He consistently ignores Biblical language, tenses, grammar, terms that are contrary to what he wants a text to mean. He then pursues to redefine, reinterpret the text by going to and using outside texts to read back into a text what he wants it to mean while ignoring contrary data. He then proceeds to the next text doing exactly the same thing and then to the next text repeating this method of eisgesis until he produces a SYSTEM consistent with his assumed interpretation of a passage based upon this rotten foundation of hermeneutics.

The consequence is contradictory conclusions as:

1. Tree representing true elect Israel "in Christ" containing elect but false Israel "in Christ"
2. Grafting in "again" what was never cut off in the first place
3. Future tense salvation interpreted in the past tense or present tense
4. Making the same pronouns "them" "their" and "they" in the same verse apply to two oppositie entities yet without any different antecedent or subject introduced in that verse or immediate previous verses.

This is how every false teacher operates and must operate with "HALF" truths.

 

In other words this tree, branches and root represent ALL THE ELECT IN CHRIST as the branches are attached to the root are they not???

Hence, ISRAEL AS A NATION must also be part of ALL THE ELECT IN CHRIST if it is part of the branches of this same tree which are attached to the same root or else they could not be "BROKEN OFF"! YOu cannot break off what is not first attached!

Your interpretation perfectly harmonizes with my view, which says Israel as a nation is God's elect nation and that election is unto salvation and PRESENTLY adn TEMPORARILY it has been broken off but it will be grafted in "AGAIN" and that grafting is salvation, remission of sins yet in the future AFTER the fullness of the Gentile elect come in.

Your interpretation makes perfect NONSENSE as you must admit they are ATTACHED in the same manner as all other branches are attached to the ROOT and thus part of the SAME TREE and if that tree is THE TRUE ISRAEL, or the TOTALITY OF THE ELECT IN CHRIST then your interpretatin has the NON-ELECT previously before they were broken off as part of TRUE ISRAEL or the ELECT IN CHRIST. Your interpretation is ARMINIAN as it teaches what are part of the TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD IN CHRIST can be lost.

 

You are willfully blind and deceived as your interpretation openly repudiates the very language Paul uses. He does not use PAST TENSE verbs but FUTURE TENSE verbs. He does not refer to the first coming but the Second coming.

You purposely isolate and cut these verses off from verse 28 which rebukes your blind ignorance and tells you that presently that Israel in verses 25-27 is NOW the "ENEMY OF THE GOSPEL" and therefore NOT YET SAVED.

However, there is one thing for sure. There is no use continuing any discussion with a person who is so spritually and willfully blinded that he must intentionally ignore The Holy Spirit's inspired terms and tense and force other scriptures into this context to justify his HALF TRUTH heresy. No amount of contextual evidence will open the eyes of a spiritually blinded man with a seared conscience and therefore it is utterly useless to continue any discussion with a person who cannot hear, cannot see and loves it so.

 

...Dr. Walter is sounding like a calvinist!!! :laugh:

 

No, I am a Biblicist! The Holy Spirit is the only One who can open blind eyes. The Word of God does not possess that power in and of itself (1 Thes. 1:5). Hence, no amount of Biblical citations, grammatical or contextual evidence can open blinded eyes or cure a conscience seared by false doctrine (1 Tim. 3:2-3).

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still - regardless of evidence.

 

Notice your consistent and methodolical system of hermeneutics. You do not deal with the internal evidence of the text, its grammar, its tenses, its immediate relationships to verses that immediately precede and follow! Indeed, you splice and isolate texts from those that precede and follow.

No, you interpret a text by going first OUTSIDE the immediate context and then use scriptures outside the immediate context to READ BACK INTO the text your ideas as though God should have placed your chosen EXTERNAL texts inside the immediate context to clarify what he REALLY means!

This kind of interpretation practice can make any text mean anything you want it to mean by simply finding some other text that has some kind of relationship (common terms, a half truth, etc.) and reading it back into the text.

This is the normal usual method employed by all "isms" to defend their half truths and heresies and it is one significant mark of a heretic.

Another glaring methodical error that is kin to your eisgetical method is answering objections simply by pitting one scripture against another scripture or using the external text to pit it against the grammatical facts of that scripture. As long as you employ these eisgetical tactics there can be no possible serious discussion with you as there is no proper basis to have a discussion.

 

You are showing a HALF truth! You have proved yourself incapable of responding to EASY and SIMPLE contextual based evidences that expose your perversion of Romans 11.

You can't distinguish the difference between a SIMPLE future tense "shall" that is repeated in Romans 11:25-28 several times from a PAST tense - which you force the text to mean by referring it back to the cross instead of to the obvious refence to the SECOND coming not the first coming.

If you cannot deal with SIMPLETON grammar like this, then, who are you to talk to anyone about "simple" concepts???????????

You have ignored grammar, ignored context, misinterpreted every text you got your hands on from Romans 9-11 because you have no ability to discern what are very "simple" concepts.

The very thing Paul is defending in Romans 9-11 is the very thing you deny. His concept is simple. God has promised Abraham a promised seed that is composed of TWICE born Jews and Gentiles. In regard to individual election - The TWICE born Jews are saved from generation to generation as a "remnant" of Israel. In regard to national election, God has TEMPORARILY rejected Israel as a NATION and during this TEMPORARY rejection period has gone to the Gentile NATIONS to call out TWICE born Gentiles. AFTER all the gentile elect "come in" then He will receive back that which he had temporarily rejected, he will graft in "again" that which was temporarily cut off, he will bring to life that which was dead, He will save ALL ISRAEL as a nation which presently are "enemies of the gospel for your sakes" and He will turn their ungodliness away AFTER His second advent and not one day, one hour before the Second advent (Zech. 12:10-13:1; Rev. 1:7; Rom. 11:25-28).

NNCE BORN JEW will compose either the "remnant" of Israel or the Elect Nation of Israel in the future! The "remnant" is the "firstfruits" and thus the proof that God has a future and greater harvest among the Jews yet to come as the future salvation at Christ's return is the "lump" or bulk AS A NATION.

The very thing Paul repeatedly says "GOD FORBID" is the very thing you teach!

 

SBG denies and then perverts the very words of Scripture


Notice the multiple TIME terms in the following text:

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Paul lived AFTER the cross and first coming of Christ but is speaking about something in verses 25-29 that does not take place not only AFTER he wrote this, but AFTER the second coming of Christ.

1. There is "part" of Israel that remains BLINDED or LOST "UNTIL" the fullness of the Gentiles be come in - v. 25.

What is the "FULNESS" of the Gentiles? It is when the LAST ELECT GENTILE will be saved and therefore the 'FULLNESS" of gentile elect "be come in."

Thus salvation of this "PART" of BLIND Israel is not saved "UNTIL" AFTER the last Gentile is saved?


2. The salvation of this "PART" of blinded Israel will not be saved until AFTER Jesus comes from heaven the SECOND TIME as Paul uses the FUTURE TENSE "shall" in describing this coming of Christ!

3. The salvation of this "PART" of blinded Israel will not be saved until AFTER Jesus turns the ungodliness from Jacob which occurs AFTER the Second Coming as both are put in the FUTURE tense "shall" from Paul's perspective.

4. This PRESENT blindness REMAINS as they "ARE" now "enemies of the gospel for your sakes - v. 28. They will REMAIN such "for your sakes" UNTIL the last gentile will "come in" and until after Christ returns and until Christ turns their ungodliness away from them AFTER he returns.

5. They "ARE" elect presently while presently "enemies of the gospel" for the sake of GENTILES.

This is not rocket science language! The future tense "shall" is simply FUTURE tense not past tense as SBG interprets it in reference to Christ's first coming and the cross. The "Israel" in verse 26 is the present blinded "PART" that will not be saved "until" after the last Gentile is saved, until after Christ comes from heaven and only AFTER he turns the ungodliness from Jacob and this "PART" is the MAJOR part of Israel, the "lump" and thus the FUTURE GREATER HARVEST and not the "remnant" of Israel that is BEING saved in every generation as the "FIRSTFRUIT" of that greater future harvest yet to come AFTER Christ's return.


This is simple, so clear that SBG must IGNORE and then CHANGE the several repeated FUTURE tense "shall" to a past tense interpretation. He must change the PRESENT tense "are" to past and future tense intepretations in order to sell his rotton "half truth" goods.