Featured A closer look at "baptizo"

That is one way to deal with your own ignorance of God's Word. Don't attempt to face the Biblical data and facts!

You remind me of those people who believe they are a gift to humanity and if you don't receive them as such then it is the loss of the world not their loss:laugh::laugh:

 

Y'all are doing a pretty good job dealing with this subject, so I'll just be a drive-by poster and lob a little bomb and leave.

Regarding I Corinthians 12:13--the baptism in this verse is water baptism, the door to the local church.

The rendering "For by one Spirit we have been baptized into the body" is a mis-translation in the KJV. The correct translation is for IN one spirit... This is the correct rendering of the Greek "en."

The body is the local church--specifically the church at Corinth.

This verse means that we, led by or under the power of the Holy Spirit we were brought to water baptism, and membership in his body.

Nowhere in the scriptures are we told that the Holy Spirit baptized anybody.

Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

 

I wonder how you get that the baptism in 1 Corinthians 12:13 is a water baptism. The scripture says, “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.”
This is about believing and receiving the Holy Spirit.

It is not only the KJV that says, “For by one Spirit we have been baptized into the body.”
New International Version (©1984) says by one Spirit.
As does the New American Standard Bible (©1995), and these translations as well:
International Standard Version (©2008)
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Webster's Bible Translation.
I think that only those not strong in the truth will fall for a different doctrine because of the word by instead of the word in.
Jesus is the Holy Spirit too, so how people can get some different doctrine is a sad case.

Again, the scripture says they were all baptized by one Spirit into one body…they were all given the one Spirit to drink…this is about receiving the Holy Spirit and being a part of the body of Christ.

A person could be water baptized before receiving the Holy Spirit. I can show you scripture on this if you would like.

God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one.

 

That is just your opinion. You have no facts to back it up.

Here is what the Scripture says, at least the part that we are considering:

και γαρ εν ενι πνευματι ημεις παντες εις εν σωμα

It says nothing whatsoever of the Holy Spirit. Where is the Holy Spirit even mentioned?? Where does it say anything about believing or receiving the Holy Spirit. You are reading into the Scripture things that are not there.

That doesn't mean they are right. Often in such cases they tend to copy one another. Again look at what it says:

και γαρ εν ενι πνευματι ημεις παντες εις εν σωμα

Did you read it? Do you see the third word? That third word "en" means "in," just like it looks. "For in one spirit we are baptized in one body."

That is heresy. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. You have a skewed or strange concept of the trinity, and in fact are destroying it with this theology.

"in one spirit"

That is what you think. But you cannot back it up with Scripture, just your own ideas. That is not what the context teaches. Find any place where the Holy Spirit does the baptizing. Jesus baptizes. His disciples baptizes. John baptizes. But the Holy Spirit does not baptize.

Yes they could, but then they would have to be baptized all over again because they would have been baptized as an unsaved person. A person receives the Holy Spirit the moment they are saved and at no other time.

Yes, co-equal, co-eternal, each one equal to each other and yet each person different from each other.
It is heresy to say that Jesus is the Holy Spirit, or
that Jesus is the Father, or
that the Holy Spirit is the Father, etc.
They are three distinct and separate persons and yet one God.

 

It is just your opinion that 1 Corinthians 12:13 is about water baptism and becoming part of a body of the Corinthian church. You have no facts to back up your falseness. It is just your wrong opinion, because the scripture plainly says it is about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is just too plain and clear for anyone to try to argue against it, just like the wine being real wine. Some people just will not or cannot accept the truth.

You just cannot see the truth when it is right in front of you. The scripture says plainly and clearly, “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.”

One Spirit into one body baptized them all…into the body of Christ. Given one Spirit to drink means they received the Spirit.

I was showing that it is not just the KJV. Do you understand that?

I can use a translation that says “in” and it would still not make a difference.

You deny the Truth. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are One and the same.

If you do not believe that Jesus is the Holy Spirit, then you believe there is not One God. Think what you say before you say it. Do you remember what you said about leaven in the wine thread? You said, “I gave Scripture about leaven. Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees. "Leaven, no matter what its source, is symbolic of false doctrine, hypocrisy, malice and wickedness. I did not confine it to bread.”
Then I shown you scripture of Jesus comparing the kingdom of heaven to leaven…"The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough."
Again, please be more careful when telling someone they are in heresy.

Again, only a person weak in their knowledge would make a new doctrine out of the word “by.” I warn you before God against quarreling about words. It is of no value. Are you bent on trying to ruin those who listen?

2 Timothy 2:14 Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

I have warned you like the Word of God says to.

That does not make sense. It is your own skewed opinion and no basis in the truth.

People were water baptized with John’s baptism, and then later were baptized with the Holy Spirit. See Acts 19:3-4, and Acts 8:12, and 16-17.
That is the Word of God. Now do you want to go against God’s Word?

Again, be careful what you call heresy.
God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the same.
About Jesus being the Holy Spirit…
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:16-18)
Did you see that? Jesus says to his disciples, “I will come to you.” Jesus says this about when he gives them the Holy Spirit, this is Jesus coming to them.
Here is another scripture that tells us that The Spirit of the Father and of Jesus are the same.
The Spirit of the Father and Jesus is the Holy Spirit see John 14:23.
About Jesus being the Father…
John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

 

Tom, I am in pretty much agreement with you and DHK on 1 Cor. 12:13 except for the phrase "in one spirit."

The preceding and overall context I believe demands that this phrase "by one Spirit" actually be interpreted to mean "under the leadership of one Spirit."

1. The Overall Context:

The first three chapters of this book deal with division over water baptismal administrators. Chapter three concludes by demanding that all these various human administrators of baptism actuall work in unity under One Spirit in baptizing members into the congregation at Corinth as a temple of the Holy Spirit:

A. The original problem:

10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 ¶ I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

B. The Apostolic solution to this problem:

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 ¶ Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.

16 ¶ Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

CONCLUSION: All human administrators of baptism whereby members are added to a local congregation work under the same boss "WITH GOD" and thus are "ONE."


2. The Immediate Context:

The same problem now has occurred in another area - spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 11:1-11) and spiritual pride by some members over other members (1 Cor. 11:12-14:41). In 1 Corinthians 11:1-3 Paul defines what he means "by the Spirit" in contrast to their previous unregenerate idolatrous worship when they acted UNDER THE LEADERSHIP of demons:

A. The Problem:

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

The contrast is made between how they acted UNDER THE LEADERSHIP of demons versus how one acts UNDER THE LEADERSHIP of the Spirit of God. Hence, "by the Spirit" is defined to men "under the leadership" or "by the direction of" the Holy Spirit in contrast to being "led" by demons.

B. The Solution in regard to Spiritual gifts:

There is no source of pride for believers to boast of their gift over another believer because spiritual gifts have their distintions, administration, and operation under the leadership of One Trinue God at work among them: (vv. 4-6)

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

There is no source of pride in the choice or power of one gift over another because both the selection of the person receiving the spiritual gift and the nature of the gift is determined under the leadership of one Spirit - the Spirit of God - vv. 7-11 - Under the leadership of One Spirit are all members in the body of Christ at Corinth empowered and diversely gifted for the common edification of the congregational body as a whole.

C. The Solution in regard to diverse Membership roles in the congregational body at Corinth - vv. 12-29

In 1 Corinthians 3 Paul had already explained how the membership in the congregational body of Christ at Corinth was built by God the Holy Spirit using diverse preachers working together under the leadership of One Spirit in building the temple of God at Corinth. He simply summarizes that chapter in verses 12-13


12 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

He first introduces it by the analogy of the human body (v. 12) and its unity and diversity. Second, he applies this to the concept of the local congregational body abstractly. Abstractly, because what he says of the congregational body at Corinth was true in regard to all readers in the apostolic age as this is how God the Holy Spirit builds each and every New Testament congregational body of Christ (as shown in 1 Cor. 3:5-16) whether at Corinth or Cenchre or Ephesus or Philippi, etc. The contextual New Testament "we" addressed in all Pauline letters were baptized believing members of New Testament congregations.

Hence, there is no basis for boasting by any member in the congregation in regard to their role in that congregational body or gift because their gift, their role, their administrator of water baptism were not ultimately due to themselves but UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF ONE SPIRIT the preachers and water administrators were sent to them, their addition as members through water baptism into the congregational body (1 Cor. 3; 11:18), their particular spiritual gift and role in that body must be credited to the Holy Spirit.

The metaphor to "drink" means to "partake" and when saved baptized believers are added to the congregational body they are made to partake of the Spirit of God in regard to His leadership within that body with regard to their role of service, order and worship (ch. 13-14).

 

Look at Simon's response! Simon was responding to what he could see and/or hear. He saw that when the apostles laid their hands on people there was some kind of audio/visual manifestations. He attempted to purchase the ability that came with laying on of apostolic hands.

Paul says there was something that set the apostles apart from the rest of men in regard to signs miracles and wonders - 2 Cor. 12:12

Paul tells the Romans that he could impart something to them (Rom. 1:11) that they had yet to receive and a cursory look at Romans 12 finds a complete absence of sign gifts.

Paul tells Timothy that special gifts were communicated to him through the laying on of His hands.

Paul laid hands on a group of disciples in Acts 19:6 and only after laying on of his hands did they receive such sign gifts.

None but apostles performed sign gifts from Acts 2-6 and only after the apostles laid their hands on seven men do we find any acknowledgement that sign gifts were being exercised and it was among these seven men.

Philip was one of those seven men and yet Philip did not have the ability to communicate such sign gifts to his converts. Apostles had to be sent out to the Samaritans and only after they laid their hands upon them did something occur that Simon saw and wanted to purchase and he saw the connection between the laying on of the apostles hands and the manifestations that followed - something you seemingly cannot see.

Conclusively, the phrase "the Spirit" in the Greek text has no definite article and thus is in what grammarians call an anarthous construction which is used to make characterizations. It is not the Person of the Holy Spirit in view but things that characterized Him or special sign gifts.

 

Readers, have you noticed that those incapable of debating their position, incapable of competent Bible exposition have no other option but to make personal attacks upon those who can? However, spiritual ignorance has no other option but to attack those who expose their ignorance.

However, it is rare when such a person makes a confession that fits their own person.

 

When the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit in the New Testament, it was evident by speaking in tongues. Speaking in tongues were a sign to the Jews.
In the Old Testament, we read this about tongues...

Isaiah 28:11 Very well then, with foreign lips

and strange tongues God will speak to this people,

12 to whom he said, "This is the resting place, let the weary rest";

and, "This is the place of repose"—

but they would not listen.

Now read what the New Testament says about tongues...

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the Law it is written:

"Through men of strange tongues

and through the lips of foreigners

I will speak to this people,

but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.

22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.

God in His infinite wisdom knew that the Gentiles speaking in tongues would be a sign to the Jews that the Gentiles are also included in salvation. Can you imagine how necessary it was for the Jews to have the sign that salvation is for the Gentiles too? This is very important since the Jews called the Gentiles "unclean people." It was even against the law for Jews to associate closely with the Gentiles. See the following passage how God poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit even on the Gentiles, as was evident by the Gentiles speaking in tongues and praising God.

Acts 10:44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Tongues did not stop during the time Jesus Christ, the Apostles and Prophets were laying down the foundation because the Apostles were still writing the scriptures. Imagine if tongues had stopped in the people who had the gift, others would erroneously believe that God also took salvation away from them, since the Jews believed God accepted Gentiles as was evident by their speaking in words of God in different languages.

Speaking in tongues that happened after people received the Holy Spirit, it was for a sign, it was a gift; however, Paul could also impart different gifts of the Holy Spirit to people who have already received the Holy Spirit.

 

Contrary to what you say here, tongues have ceased. No one speaks in tongues today. No one spoke in tongues after the time of the apostles, particularly the time of the completion of the revelation of God, which was the Book of Revelation itself. That also was one of the purposes of tongues--to supply revelatory knowledge before revelation was complete. But now we have the Bible. Revelation is not on-going. Our canon is complete or closed. There is no need for tongues. These sign gifts have ceased.
If they haven't why doesn't God give them to missionaries who really need them?

Paul could not impart any gift. Only God imparts gifts.

 

Let me first say, that with much of what you say I agree. However, in this introductory statement above, IF, and I emphasize "IF" you are saying that speaking in tongues is the necessary New Testament evidence of the indwelling Spirit of God within believers then I totally disagree with that statement.

First, we do not determine DOCTRINE by examples, parables, spiritualizations or etc.

Why? Because there are examples in scripture that violate principles. Why, Because, parables, spiritualizations can be easily manipulated to fit whatever one desires. That is why the proper use of such is only used supportively of clear precepts and explicit principles revealed in scriptures.

Romans 8:8-9 is such a clear precept. Paul classifies all of mankind within two camps. They are either "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit"! There is no THIRD category. Those "in the Spirit" have the indwelling Spirit of God or else they are 'NONE OF HIS."

Pre-Pentecost saints were regenerated by the Spirit (Jn. 3:3-9) as much as Post-Penteocst saints. They were saved by the same gospel (Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43; 26:22-23) and same Savior (Jn. 14:6; Acts 4:12) and saved from the very same condition (Rom. 3:9-11 with Psalm 14:2-3) - sin.

The Holy Spirit comes upon Post-Pentecostal saints (Acts 8) as Pre-Pentecostal saints and this has nothing to do with the indwelling of the Spirit of God but with tempoary empowering, gifting, using by God.

Abraham is given as an illustration (Gal. 3:6-8) of those having received the indwelling Spirit of God (Gal. 3:1-5). Peter says that all the prophets in the Old Testament had the Spirit of God "IN" them (1 Pet. 1:10-15). There are others in the Old Testament scriptures who are described as having the indwelling Spirit of God.

The baptism in the Spirit has NOTHING to do with individuals per se or salvation per se but with the public accredition of God's house, the public accredition and confirmation of completeion of New Testament scriptures and New Testament revelation among other things that characterize a change in Kingdom administration from the Jewish temple to the Christian congregation.

You are correct that the specific gift of tongues was prophesied in Isaiah as a special "sign" to the Jewish nation that their Christ had come and its continuance was terminated by national rejection of what it signified.

 

I did not say tongues have not ceased, for they have ceased.

Are you arguing with words again? It is right to say Paul could impart spiritual gifts.
Romans 1:11 I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong--

 

Then you are not clear in expressing yourself.

We were speaking of tongues when you made that statement. Here it is.

Your statement begins with "Speaking in tongues," speaking of the sign gifts." Why would anyone think that you are speaking of Romans 1:11 when we are discussing the gifts mentioned in 1Cor.12-14? Those gifts Paul could not impart.

 

I only said what the scriptures say, that the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit was evidence to the Jews by the Gentiles speaking in tongues.
Acts 10:44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

I do not believe what you say here.

I have seen people discount the obvious plain truth of a scripture and say it cannot be counted as such because it is a parable, or because the Bible only mentioned it once. People in false religions and false doctrines try to give seemingly educated reasons why not to believe in all God’s word, especially when it interferes with their false doctrines.

I understand what you are saying; however, you say it has nothing to do with the indwelling of the Spirit of God; how can you say that since when they received the Holy Spirit some spoke in tongues at that same time, as it was evidence to the Jews, a sign.
I would like to ask you, do you believe that the righteous people in the Old Testament all had the Holy Spirit living inside them?

 

I am clear in expressing myself; you just have a problem with understanding. Where do I say tongues are evidence of the Holy Spirit now? I repeat the scriptures, yet you say I am not clear.

How do you get that Paul could not impart gifts when the scripture has Paul saying he could? Why do you have such a problem with Romans 1:11? The Holy Spirit distributes gifts, and the Apostles could impart gifts of the Holy Spirit by the laying of hands.
1 Timothy 4:14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

 

The Holy Spirit is the gift, and the Holy Spirit can give gifts.

These scriptures shows us the Holy Spirit is a gift.

John 4:10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.

Acts 11:16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?”
18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

Acts 1:3-5 After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

These scriptures show gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 2:14 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Acts 14:3 So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders.

 

Ok, I don't have problem with that.

You missed my point. My point was when supposed parables, spiritualizations, etc. CONTRADICT unambiguous precepts and Biblical principles. When there are no Biblical precepts or clear scriptural principles then any interpretation of a parable, example, etc. is pure speculative opinion with nothing to support it and is not worthy of Biblical doctrine. If you disagree, then please present a case where you base a doctrine solely upon a parable, example, spiritualization.

I will answer your question, but first let me ask you a question. What do you think is God's purpose in having the Holy Spirit indwell His people?

Now, for my answer. Yes, I believe the Holy Spirit has indwelt every child of God since Genesis. May I anticipate an objection and say, the experiential presence of the Holy Spirit has been removed from every child of God when they willfully commit sin. By "experiential presence" I mean CONSCIOUS FELLOWSHIP and its characteristics (peace, joy, blessings, usefulness, answer to prayers, guidance, etc.). However, the experiential presence does not mean the PERSON of the Holy Spirit has departed from the child of God.

The Holy Spirit came "upon" lost people in the Old Testament (Cyrus, etc.) where particular wisdom, power, direction was given to use that Person for accomplishing God's purpose and then left that Person when His purpose was accomplished. The same is true concerning professed people of God put in leadership capacities. The same is true today.