Featured A closer look at "baptizo"

How about if you give an example.

This sounds so contradictory. What do you mean the experiential presence does not mean the person of the Holy Spirit has departed from the child of God, when you had just said the experiential presence of the Holy Spirit has been removed?
I do not believe all the believers had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before Jesus sent the Holy Spirit.

What you describe here is different than saying all the people of the Old Testament had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as believers did in the New Testament and today.

 

My point exactly!

There is a difference in experiencing the EFFECTS of the Indwelling Spirit of God versus the FACT of the Indwelling Spirit of God. The GOOD FEELING effects (joy, peace, assurance, leadership, filling) we all enjoy. However, when we sin there are BAD FEELING effects we do not enjoy (chastening, loss of joy, loss of the feeling of assurance, loss of filling) but the BAD FEELING effects also prove the FACT of His indwelling. We term the GOOD FEELING effects as "fellowship" but the BAD FEELING effects as LOSING the joy, filling, assurance, leadership, etc., as broken fellowship with God. He has not left us, we have left him.

In short, when we are experiencing the BAD FEELING effects we long for the RESTORATION of the GOOD FEELING effects but the Holy Spirit has not departed only the particular good effects of the Holy Spirit have departed while the bad effects are just as much proof of the FACT His presence.

It is always nice to FEEL the "good" effects of the Presence of the Holy Spirit but his presence is something we must accept by faith based upon His word even when we do not FEEL the "good" effects of His presence.

I have to admit that most of Christendom takes your position. However, I believe they and you are wrong (Rom. 8:8-9) and it is a complete misinterpretation of the "baptism in the Spirit" in its connection with a transition from the Old Covenant Kingdom Administration to the New Covenant kingdom Administration (Heb. 9:1).

What you describe here is different than saying all the people of the Old Testament had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as believers did in the New Testament and today.[/QUOTE]

 

How is it your point? Give an example of what false doctrines people make up from parables. There are probably just as many false doctrines people try to hang on to by saying parables cannot be relied upon for truth.

Show scripture that says that.

How do you think this is in the Old Testament for all believers? Please use scripture. In the Old Testament, God’s Spirit was near the people, not in all the people.

I could understand what you are saying as to people who are saved from the New Testament times on, but it does not support you saying all believers in the Old Testament had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

You use Romans 8:8-9 to try to explain something the Old Testament does not say. In the Old Testament, God’s Spirit was with His people, the Jews. However, God’s Spirit was not in all the people. God’s Spirit is in all true believers now, not just on a mountain in the region of His people.

It is different, and?

 

You are the one that claimed doctrine could be established upon a parable or example without Biblical precept and/principle NOT ME! I am the one who denied it. However, if you want an example just look at the Jehovah's witness of the heavenly class based upon their interpretation of Revelation 7:1-8. Or you can look at the doctrine of investigative judgement by SDA based upon
Daniel 8:14. Do you need more proof it can be done and has been done??

You are the one asserting that the very principle both the JW's and SDA used is justifiable NOT ME!

You quote me as saying:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Biblicist
First, we do not determine DOCTRINE by examples, parables, spiritualizations or etc.
Why? Because there are examples in scripture that violate principles. Why, Because, parables, spiritualizations can be easily manipulated to fit whatever one desires.

then you respond:

I do not believe what you say here.


If we cannot get beyond this point no point discussing what else you go on to say.

 

Where did I say that? You are the one who brought up parables and spiritualization. You are the one who puts doubt on God's Word concerning parables.
All of God’s Word is Truth. You were trying to discount God’s Word by speaking of something against spiritualization and parables. Why are you putting down parables? Which scriptures do you think people get wrong by “spiritualization”? I asked you to give an example of what you are talking about, and you did not.

You have not explained what JW’s and SDA’s have misunderstood. Parables are not the only scriptures people use for their false doctrines! You have not sufficiently explained what you are talking about and what it has to do with my comment or comments.

You are the one who is casting doubt on the Word of God’s use of parables.
I explained to you that people also try to discount parables when the parable goes against their false beliefs.
Is this all you are going to discuss more confusing replies about what you think about parables and spiritualization? What does parables and spiritualization have to do with what I said and the scriptures and topic we were discussing.

 

Yes, I had a problem understanding you because of the way you phrased your statements. I tried to point it out to you, but to no avail. But never mind. It is irrelevant anyway.

You jerk Scripture out of context like one from a cult.
We were discussing speaking of tongues, and the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit found in 1Cor.12-14. Then you quote a verse from Romans 1, that has nothing to do with any supernatural gift whatsoever.

1Cor.12-14--supernatural gifts.
Romans 1--spiritual gift.
--they are as different as night and day.

The supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased.

What was Paul talking about in Romans 1, then?

Romans 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
What is this spiritual gift? Read on:

Romans 1:12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
--It is the comfort that they would gain from him coming to them, sharing the same faith, and them being able to hear the faith, the gospel, the Word being preached unto them. That is the spiritual gift Paul would impart to them.

He says again:
Romans 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.
--He will come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ. This is the spiritual gift. It is the gospel. It is not the supernatural gifts of 1Cor.12-14.

Timothy had the gift either of that of preaching or very similar to that of preaching. He was not to neglect it. It was a gift having to do with the ministry, not supernatural.
It had nothing to do with speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, healing, miracles, etc.

 

No wonder you are so rudely against me. You believe in false nowadays tongues.

 

You certainly are one confused puppy! Trying to reason with you is like trying to reason with a woman at the wrong time of the month. - Impossible!

 

The word "perfect" means complete. Are you suggesting that at any time Jesus was "incomplete." A little blasphemous don't you think?
Secondly, the word for "complete" is teleios, and is in the neuter gender. It cannot refer to Jesus. The pronoun would have to be masculine to refer to Jesus, thus this neuter word that is used rules Christ out immediately. The most likely interpretation is "Word" referring to the Scriptures. When the Word of God is complete, that that which is temporary shall pass away. IOW, the spiritual gifts would no longer be needed.

If that is true, prove it to me. Here is the evidence I require. Peter had the gift of healing. Look at it:

Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
--Thousands came to Peter. They came not just from Jerusalem but from all the cities all around Jerusalem. Then it says and they were healed every one.
All of the quadriplegics, paraplegics, the paralyzed, those that had MS, Cerebral Palsy, etc. He made the blind to see, the lame to walk, the deaf to hear, the mute to speak. He healed them all. No exceptions. This was the gift of healing.
--Now, where is that happening today?
Show me a place, a person who has that gift.
Is there anyone who is going through the hospitals and healing all that are there, especially the ERs? No. It is not happening. The gift of healing has ceased.
Have you ever seen anyone speak in tongues; Biblical tongues? Do they have the gift of speaking in a language that they have never studied so that they can communicate the gospel to others. Even the deceived Charismatics, before sending their missionaries out must send them to a language school. Ironic isn't it. If tongues were for today, why didn't the Lord just grant me the languages of the nations that he sent me to? Why was all the study necessary? Because tongues are not for today, and there is no one with that gift.
The closest you can point to is William Carey, a shoemaker, who in his intense desire to serve God went to India, and translated the Bible or parts of the Bible into 44 different languages. But it was travail, hard work and tribulation.

Opinions don't count. Believe the Scripture instead.

It is sad when you count your experience as more important than the Word of God.

Paul talks more of the abuse of tongues, and gives more reason why they should not be used. He also said they would cease and gives indication as to that time period (which has already passed). If you think you speak in tongues today you are being deceived.

Read again where they came from in the early 1900's. They came from false prophets, charlatans, frauds. It was not of God. It was, in many cases, demonic and can be attributed to Satan himself. Learn more about the people who were involved in this.

You don't know anything about you. But I know something about you.
You just personally attacked me, which is against the BB rules. It is not a display of the fruit of the Spirit, but a display of something else. The spiritual error in this post belongs to you. You need to study; study the Scriptures.
You do err not knowing the Scriptures neither the power of God.

 

You got nerve trying to put down what I say. In another thread you said, “Leaven, no matter what its source, is symbolic of false doctrine, hypocrisy, malice and wickedness. I did not confine it to bread.” You would think that you would be more humbled after that blasphemy.
Matthew 13:33 He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough."

You speak wrong about the meaning of leaven and the word of God, no wonder you twist what I said and why I said it. The scripture you are contesting is about baptism of the Spirit and belonging to the body of Christ. The scripture plainly and clearly say that. You have no grounds to say it means differently.

You think so because you say so. Lol

You are wrong. Sharing the faith is not imparting a spiritual gift. Spiritual gifts were given by laying on of the hands.

You go against the plain and simple truth. You say something then quote it as if you have proved something. The only thing you have proved is that you do not accept the plain and simple truth.
1 Timothy 4:14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.
2 Timothy 1:6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands.

The gift was given to Timothy through a prophetic message when the elders laid their hands on him. You keep arguing about words. You give no value to the discussion and only harm listeners; the Word of God says that about people who argue about words as you do. A gift given to someone through a prophetic message when the elders laid their hands on someone is a supernatural event.
su•per•nat•u•ral/ˌso͞opərˈnaCH(ə)rəl/
Adjective: (of a manifestation or event) Attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.


Noun: Manifestations or events considered to be of supernatural origin.


Synonyms: preternatural - unearthly - weird - miraculous

 

You show how ridiculous and unreasonable you are.
I could come back with better cut-downs, but then I would be like you.

 

Why do you not explain again and discuss more with us all how all the believing Jews had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament?
LOL

 

Jesus taught "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees," referring to their false doctrine. I stand by my words: 'It refers to false doctrine, hypocrisy, malice, and wickedness.' Those are the things that the Bible specifically states that leaven is representative. However, as Biblicist has already pointed out to you, you are trying to teach doctrine from a parable. Parables are used to illustrate truth already taught. You err in your approach to your understanding of the Bible. One doesn't take doctrine from the Bible, but rather realizes that the parable illustrates one truth that the parable is illustrating. In the parable you are referencing, leaven means leaven.

In the parable leaven means leaven. Is that hard for you to understand?
In 1Cor.12, most of the chapter is speaking of the local church and its various members. We are baptize in one spirit into one body. It speaks of the unity that we have as one body in the local church. It relates to us how each member works with each other member. Paul was stressing unity in the body.

It is what the Bible teaches, and you deny that the Bible teaches these truths. It is a pity:

1Cor.12-14--supernatural gifts.
Romans 1--spiritual gift.
--they are as different as night and day.

Then why does Paul say it is??

Romans 1:11-12 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

The sentence is one. There is no break. "that is that I may be comforted together with you..." It is the gospel that is comforting.

What you mean to say, is that I accept the Scripture more than I accept your opinion.

This is a completely different situation not really applicable to today.
Here is what Clarke says:

The "gift" is the word charisma, a word often used for "graces" as well as "gifts," but is not commonly used for something supernatural. What was given here was some gift related to the ministry, not a supernatural gift. Remember this is a pastoral epistle.

 

The Book of Romans, especially the first 8 chapters is devoted to a systematic presentation of why the gospel needs to be preached.

1. The problem - men are sinners by nature and condemned - chs. 1:18-3:23
2. The solution - God's free provision of redemption in Christ - Rm. 3:24-26
3. The application - Rm. 3:27-8:39
a. Why justification is by faith without works - Rm. 3:27-5:2
b. Why justification by faith works - Rom. 5:3-8:39

In all of this explanation of the "common salvation" Paul bases each aspect upon Old Testament truths concerning the nature of man, nature of sin, (Gen. 3; Rom. 5:12-19; Psalm 14:2-3) nature of justification by faith (Abraham/David)and the nature of progressive sanctification or walking by faith.

However, to simplify it further, there can be no salvation of any sinner apart from the permenant indwelling of the Holy Spirit simply because progressive sanctification is an inseparable part of salvation and there can be no progressive sanctification apart from the indwelling presence and power of the regenerative Spirit of God. Abraham, David, Moses and others had the permenent indwelling Person of the Holy Spirit and their progressive life of faith proves it as faith is a fruit of the indwelling Spirit of God.

Romans 8:8-9 is an indisputable proof that where there is no personal indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit THERE IS NO TRUE CHILD OF GOD anywhere in scripture between Genesis and Revelation. The very nature of progressive sanctification is a matter of living "in the Spirit" and walking after the Spirit because those who live "in the flesh" and walk "after the flesh" CANNOT PLEASE GOD regardless at what time period they may live.

Moreover, SPIRITUAL UNION with God is impossible apart from the indwelling Spirit of God. Those who are not in SPIRITUAL UNION with God are SPIRITUALLY DEAD and therefore there can be no PART TIME indwelling or there is PART TIME spiritual death.

 

You do not want to admit error and repent. You stand by your blasphemous words. You said, “Leaven, no matter what is source, is symbolic of false doctrine, hypocrisy, malice and wickedness.”

Jesus compared leaven to the kingdom of heaven!

People are so wicked. Tell me, what doctrine do you and Biblicist say I was trying to teach from a parable?

You are not slick enough to be called a fox. Tell me, where have I erred in my approach to my understanding of the Bible?

What senseless rambling.

DHK, you spoke against the Word of God, and you do not want to admit error. What kind of spirit do you have? Instead of admitting error, you go on with nonsense against me.

I know that is what you have tried to say the scripture means, but the scripture does not say that.

Again, just because you say so does not make it so. I gave scripture and English dictionary definition. You cannot be reasoned with.

Paul wanted to impart a spiritual gift. That is what the scripture says.

Can your next-door non-believer neighbor come to your house, lay his hands on you, and give you a gift like knowledge of math so you can teach algebra? Why or why not? Would it be supernatural or not?
Do you still not see how ridiculous your denial of the truth is?
Do you really think that you quoting some person to say what your itching ear wants to hear will impress me?

 

What does any of this have to do with what I said and what you said?

Romans 8:8-9 is in the New Testament about New Testament/New Covenant believers.
Jesus said, “Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.”
John 4:21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
Would you ever admit error?

 

The essence of salvation is SPIRITUAL UNION with God as the essence of SPIRITUAL DEATH is spiritual separation from God. Can you understand that simple truth?

There can be no regeneration and progressive sanctification apart from the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

Human beings and their sin problems are no different before Pentecost than after Pentecost and neither is the salvation provided by God of which the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit is absolutely inseparable and vital. Where there is no indwelling presence of the Spirit of God there is no SPIRITUAL UNION and where there is no spiritual union there can only be SPIRITUAL SEPARATION which is SPIRITUAL DEATH.

Eternal life is SPIRITUAL UNION with God just as spiritual death is SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God. Where there is no permenant presence of the Spirit of God there is no ETERNAL LIFE or SPIRITUAL LIFE but only SPIRITUAL DEATH.

 

Again, you are not giving biblical support to your false beliefs. How does what you say here support your beliefs about all the Old Testament righteous people having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

God’s people were the Jews. In the Old Testament, God’s Spirit was with the Jews, but did not indwell them all as God does true believers now. God’s people the Jews had to do a lot of things just to worship God in an earthly sanctuary, they had external washings, gift offerings, and sin offerings, etc., just to worship God. Jesus’ blood has changed all that for true believers. The dwelling place for God’s Spirit is now inside believers.

 

First, you are assuming that since Romans 8:8-9 is found in the New Testament Scriptures that it is restricted to Post-Pentecost people of God. Prove that assumption!

I can prove that it is found in a UNIVERSAL context where Paul simply divides mankind into two SPIRITUAL conditions (1) "in the flesh" (2) "in the Spirit" and there can be no possible third or intermediate condition.

Second, Paul does not place such a restriction but explicitly says "IF ANY MAN" not merely Post-Pentecosts men - that is your assumption without scripture.

Hence, Romans 8:8-9 is my explicit Biblical support for my position.

What about Abel? What about Abraham? What about Rahab? What about the Nivevites that repented at the preaching of Jonah?

Moreover, you are assuming that simple ethnicty made one a true people of God! That is simply not true. Jesus told Nicodemus BEFORE Pentecost that he needed to be born again and John said the new birth had nothing to do with physical ethnicity as it was not something "born of blood."

Not all Israelites according to the flesh were of Israel according to the promise but only those born again of the Spirit of God. Jesus rebuked Nicodemus for ignorance of the new birth PRIOR TO PENTECOST (Jn. 3:9-10). According to your theory, Nicodemus could not help being ignorant of the new birth. Prior to Pentecost it was referred to as circumcision OF THE HEART.

New birth by PRE-PENTECOST definition is an INTERNAL work of the Spirit of God within man. Apart from the permenant indwelling presence of the Spirit of God there can be no SPIRITUAL UNION and no progressive sanctification.