Featured A compassionate plea to Calvinists

steaver

This kind of ignorant post shows you do not know what you are speaking about so it gets no serious response.

Again...this is foolish and shows you have an agenda....but no knowledge:thumbs:

 

Ditto Icon!!!!:thumbs:

 

Biblical and historical facts stand in the way of your rabble-rousing.

Why do insist on saying completely untrue things when you know very well that the truth is against you? Even other honest non-Cals would say you are engaging in falsehood.

The above assertion tells me that you either have never listened to MacArthur. And of course if you have never listened to him you wouldn't know. So, A)you are lying if you say he preaches like an Arminian, or B)you are lying because you have never even heard him preach.

Have you ever read the sermons of Whitefield, Spurgeon, Boice, or DMLJ? Will you accuse them of preaching like Arminians too?

What exactly constitues "preaching like an Arminian" in your unique view?

 

By the response, it appears it is spot on :thumbsup:

 

Oh I have listened to him many times, great preacher, love him! And I guess you can figure out why a Calvinist preacher would sound great to me, a non-cal.

Preaching like an Arminian is begging people to believe in Jesus Christ. Not something a Calvinistic preacher who really believes in TULIP should be honestly doing.

 

So you apparently think that John MacArthur is unique among Calvinist preachers for him to exhort and implore people to lay down their weapons of warfare and be reconciled with God? How many Calvinists have you actually listened to? How many sermons of Calvinistic preachers have really read? It sounds to me like you are completely oblivious.

Do yourself a favor and read Buyan, Rutherford, Sibbs and Falvel for starters. Why even read John Calvin himself to disabuse you of your prejudice.

Evangelical Preaching by A.W. Pink

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men (2 Cor. 5:11). Do you do this brother preacher? query:Were Paul on earth today saying, "We persuade men" would his orthodoxy be suspected? Again; he announced, "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us; we pray (plead) you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God" (2 Cor. 5:20) Do these methods characterize our evangelical ministrations? Surely we all have need to pray earnestly for more devotion to Christ, more love for souls, more fervour and power in preaching the gospel.

 

Yes, if a Calvinist preacher were truly honest he would tell his audience Jesus MIGHT love them, but he is not sure. Jesus MIGHT have died for some of them, but again he is not sure, and has no idea who the elect are. If he is REALLY honest he will admit he is not even sure HE is elect, he will just have to hope he endures to the end. But even that does not prove he is really elect.

If a Calvinist preacher were truly honest he would have to tell his audience that the greater probability is that God hates them, and determined before they were ever born to pass them by and let them burn in the lake of fire. This brings honor and pleasure to God.

This is what a Calvinist preacher would say if he was HONEST. But they aren't honest, they carefully say things like "Jesus died for sinners" trying to give folks the false impression that he knows Jesus died for them personally when he knows no such thing. Even this statement is a lie, for if he was honest the Calvinist preacher would say Jesus died for "some sinners" but he doesn't know who.

If a Calvinist preacher were honest he would tell folks that his message is not "good news" for most of his listeners, but a message of sure damnation. God has already chosen to pass them by, not for anything good or evil they did, but just because it brings him pleasure and honor to torture them forever in the lake of fire.

 

Keep on erecting those flimsy strawmen winman. Do you think that years after posting such drivel year after year on the BB people can't see you for what you are?

Telling sinners that Christ died for sinners is biblical. No false impressions whatsoever.

The Gospel is Good News for those who God intended it to be. Hearing the Gospel has a dual effect. It's like a sweet smelling savor to some and a stinking odor to others. The Lord has intended it to be so.

Boy, you really go to town with your lies don't you? You do it all up in inimitable winman style. But unfortunately it doesn't adorn the Gospel or your life.

People are accountable for their sins. No one gets to go to Heaven because of their good works. God is not to be blamed for the creature's rebellion against the sovereign Lord.

Another thing. You repeated your mantra that Calvinist preachers don't know who the elect are. What's new about that? No one does -- even Arminians!:type:

 

It's only a straw-man because no Calvinist preacher anywhere would tell the honest truth of what they really believe. Yes, it's a straw-man because such an honest Calvinist does not exist.

But I have not misrepresented Calvinism at all, and you KNOW it.

Calvinism doesn't believe Christ died for "sinners", that gives the impression that Jesus died for every sinner. Calvinism believes Jesus only died for "some sinners" as I correctly wrote. This is your Limited Atonement.

It might be good news to that lucky elect person in the audience, but it is horrible, horrible news to the vast majority whom God has already decided to pass by and allow to go to hell. Only "few" enter the stait gate.

Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Now, Mat 7:14 is also true for the Arminian, but an Arminian can do something about it, they can choose to trust Christ, no one is excluded, and he can know for a FACT that Jesus died for him. No Calvinist can know that.

I haven't told one lie and if you were truly intelligent you would know that. If you think I am lying, it is obvious you do not understand your own doctrine.

Who said people are not accountable for their sins? Did I say that?

But you are wrong about God being blamed for the creature's rebellion, as you teach that God cursed all men to be born with a sin nature because of Adam's sin. I teach no such thing, I utterly reject Original Sin. I do not believe men are born guilty of Adam's sin (Eze 18:20), and I do not believe men are born sinful (Ecc 7:29). I believe all men freely and willingly choose to sin and become sinful. In my view men truly are responsible for being sinful. In your view being sinful is forced upon a person when they are conceived.

Remember, you folks believe it is like the spots on a leopard, or an Ethiopian's dark skin. Who gave the leopard his spots Rippon? Who gave the Ethiopian his dark skin Rippon?

Think real hard. (for once)

You are wrong, I KNOW I am elect because I have believed on Jesus.

1 Jhn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I don't hope I have eternal life, I KNOW I have eternal life because I have believed on Jesus to save me. I have trusted, relied, depended, leaned upon him to save me. I have his solemn word that if I come to him I shall not be cast out (John 6:37). I have his promise that he will never leave me nor forsake me (Heb 13:5).

I am not persevering or enduring to the end to try to convince myself I am elect, I know whom I have believed and am persuaded he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him (2 Tim 1:12).

I am not hoping I will be faithful to Jesus so that he saves me, I am saved because Jesus will always be faithful to me.

What you believe and what I believe couldn't be more different. They are not the same gospel. Your gospel is no gospel at all, it is not good news for anyone, because no Calvinist has a clue who is elect.

I haven't misrepresented Calvinism at all. You need to start thinking with your brain instead of mindlessly believing what others have brainwashed you with. Then you will know I am telling you the honest truth.

 

Actually, a GOOD Calvinist would preach to them as a Spurgeon did, or as Paul did, as both of them would preach and teach that sinners must receive Jesus Christ in order to have eternal life granted them by God, and any who is under the conviction and presense of the Holy Spirit must come RIGHT NOW to Christ!

As Spurgeon himself stated, while as yet a sinner, he looked unto Christ, and was saved!
At least someone who holds a Calvinistic view of salvation can have confidence in that the Lord will harvest out from there his own people, that His message will NOT return void!

 

Hate and lies. That's all you're running on winman.

Of course you have --over and over for years on the BB. We could take a survey here and see if I am the only one convinced of your mendacity.

Luck has absolutely nothing to do with one's eternal destiny. God is not to be blamed for someone going to Perdition.

Let the following sink into your ears. You didn't get it the first time.

2 Cor. 2:15,16:

For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. To the one we are an aroma that brings death; to the other, an aroma that brings life. and who is equal to such a task?

That itself is a lie winman.

You said that I as a representative Calvinist believe that it "brings pleasure and honor to torture them [the reprobate --Rip] forever in the Lake of Fire. That is a bold-face lie.

There is no hesitation -- you are lying. My doctrine is not what you describe.

Over and over. You want to hold God responsible for passing certain people by. You want to state it's God's fault that someone doesn't get a chance -- not lucky -- as you put it. You conveniently ignore their sin. You want to castigate the Lord if someone isn't chosen.

And that's a good reason why you are on the outskirts of orthodoxy.

The Lord. So you are back to blaming Him again.

There you go lying again. You know very well I was dealing with your contention that Calvinist preachers don't know who the elect are. I had said that no one truly knows who the elect and non-elect are. I wasn't referring to one's own assurance of election. It's just another example of your continual dishonesty winman.

Ya got that right.

You're spinning another spool of lies wrapped up in a wad of hate.

Why do you spout the same nonsense over and over? I dealt with this earlier. You are being deliberately dense. No one knows who the elect are --neither Calvinists, Arminians --or even you Mr. winman.

Words have meaning --but you have twisted them totally out of recognition.

...when you actually tell the truth for the first time.

 

Show me where I lied.

Again, show me where I lied.

Maybe a better word would have been fortunate.

If you believe God cursed man to have a sin nature, he certainly is to be blamed for sin. If you designed a robot to kill people, would you be responsible for those it killed?

Why would God do that? We lock criminals up so that they cannot commit more crime, why would God punish sin by making everyone be born a sinner so that they certainly commit more sin? Does that make sense to you?

Your view of God makes God appear rather foolish.

You have just proved what I said, you believe it is pleasing to God to destroy sinners, it is like a pleasant aroma to him.

And yet you have not shown where I lied.

You just showed 2 Cor 2:15-16 to prove that. You believe men frying in hell is a pleasant aroma to God.

Of course, that is not what that scripture is saying at all, but that is how YOU presented it.

I am describing your doctrine quite accurately.

If you walked by a pool and saw little children drowning and continued to walk by, would you be responsible? Would it matter there was a no trespassing sign and they had purposely jumped the fence, would that relieve you of the responsibility to save them?

Or lets say someone takes a handful of sleeping pills. They want to kill themselves. Does that relieve you of the responsibility to call medics to try and come save them?

Dude, I do not want to be among your orthodoxy.

I don't blame God, I don't believe God imputes Adam's sin to people as you do, I do not believe God makes man sinful as you do. I believe men "become filthy" when they knowingly and willingly choose to sin. Men are completely responsible for their own sin in my view, much more so than your view.

But Calvinists DON"T know for certain they are elect. YOU don't know for certain you are elect. You must make your election and calling SURE. I do not have to prove to myself I am saved, I trust Jesus and believe his promises.

You are wrong. I know I am elect because I have believed, and the scriptures say those who believe on Jesus can KNOW they are saved.

The difference is that I am depending on Jesus to preserve and keep me, while you are hoping you persevere to the end. Very different views.

 

I know that Jesus died for my sins, in my place, and by the Grace of God, He allowed me to turn to jesus to get saved!

KNOW saved, as believe in what the Bible states, that we can KN OW hvae eternal life right here and now!

My salvation the Lord granted me was the proof was one of His elect...

 

Not if you are a Calvinist you don't. You believe you must persevere to the end to be saved, and you cannot possibly know that until you die.

I am not a Calvinist or an Arminian, I do not have to persevere to be saved. I am not depending on my faithfulness to Jesus to save me, if that were the case, I would have been lost a long time ago.

No, I am completely depending on Jesus to keep his promises to me. He said if I come to him, he will in no wise cast me out. (Jhn 6:37). The scriptures say, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. I called on Jesus to save me, and I am depending on him to keep his promise to me.

YOU can't depend on that, because you believe in Limited Atonement and you do not know who Jesus died for. He MIGHT have died for you, that is the best you can do. No way you can know for a certainty.

And that is why Calvinists and Arminians go about trying to prove to themselves they are saved. They must WORK to prove to themselves they are saved, just like the good ol' RCC teaches. The mother and her daughters all believe the same thing. :thumbsup:

But you contradict yourself when you say you believe Limited Atonement. If you believe Jesus died for only SOME sinners, then you cannot possibly KNOW Jesus died for you as you claim.

Just because you believe you are elect doesn't make it so. You could believe a glass full of poison was pure fresh water and drink it, and it will kill you no matter what you believe.

You can believe a pistol is unloaded and put it to your head and pull the trigger. If it is loaded it will blow your brains out no matter what you believe.

If Limited Atonement is true, you have no possible way to know you are elect until you die and hope you wake up in heaven.

Good luck. :laugh:

 

All Scripture Citations Are From The NIV

You don't want 2 Cor.2:15,16 to be a part of the biblical canon?

You have a perception deficit.

Historical Christian orthodoxy was what I was referencing.

I don't believe that at all. So that makes you a liar for saying it.

Calvinists and all genuine Christians know they are elect because they are recipients of the Mercy of God --through Jesus.

Oh, you are so above it all. You don't need to humbly obey the injunctions of Scripture :"Therefore,my brothers and sisters,make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." 2 Peter 1:10,11).

And perhaps you want to glibly ignore a related passage:
" Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith;test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you --unless, of course, you fail the test? And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test." (2 Cor. 13:5,6)

Blah,blah, blah. I said you were dense with reference to this subject in my prior thread. Now you are just being plain stupid. You were speaking of Calvinists preachers not knowing who the elect are in their congregations. And I said (for what? the 4th time?) no one knows who the elect are --not you or anyone. Spurgeon said just put a sign on them --no one knows.

You are a major prevaricator. You don't even know how to blush. And yet you repeatedly ask where you have lied? Come off it.

 

I am not a Calvinist, you cannot deceive me with false arguments like this. :laugh:

It is your interpretation of this scripture I disagree with. And so did Albert Barnes, a Calvinist theologian;

Your interpretations of scripture are horrendous, and border on blasphemy.

Right.

Historical "Reformed" orthodoxy. Many have disagreed with Reformed theology throughout the history of the church and STILL DO.

You believe only God can alter a man's nature don't you? Who do you believe altered Adam's nature after he sinned and all his descendants?

If you believe in Limited Atonement you cannot possibly know you are elect. If Jesus did not die for you, then you are not elect even if you have convinced yourself you are. As I said, you can believe a pistol is unloaded, put it to your head and pull the trigger, if it is loaded it will blow your brains out no matter what you believe.

Your confidence does not determine reality. Believing you are elect does not make you elect. And if Limited Atonement is true, there is a far greater probability that you are NOT elect. Good luck.

I am not above anybody, I am a sinner. I am probably a worse sinner than you. Thank God I do not depend upon my righteousness or faithfulness to Jesus to save me, I am depending on his faithfulness to keep those promises he made to me. And I can KNOW those promises were made to me because I believe the Bible teaches UNlimited atonement. Jesus died for 100% of all men. That MUST include me. So, I can safely depend and rely on his promise that if I came to him in my heart (and I did), that he will in no wise cast me out.

Has nothing to do with how good or faithful I am, has everything to do with how good and faithful Jesus is.

You just don't get it, Calvinism does not teach the gospel. The good news is that Jesus absolutely died for you and all men, and that if you trust him right now to save you, he will.

Give it a try. :thumbsup:

I do examine myself and make sure I am depending on Jesus, and not myself and my performance to save me. Good thing too, because I can tell you right now I would have washed out long ago.

How about you?

You are wrong. If you do what God said, that is, place your trust on Jesus and him alone to save you, then you can know for an absolute certainty that you are one of the elect and saved right now.

1 Jhn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I'm not waiting to see if I persevere to know if I am saved some day, I know I am a son of God NOW.

1 Jhn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I don't have to do a bunch of works to prove to myself I am saved, I know that I called out to Jesus in my heart and trusted or believed him to save me. Therefore by the authority of God's word I can know for an absolute fact I am saved.

Your problem is you have been taught another gospel. And it is not good news at all.

Oh well, keep on enduring to the end, I hope you make it. Good luck.

 

I know that I was once dead in my sins, apart from God due to being a sinner, then God allowed me to look to jesus, and get saved!

Really, we can know with confidence that which He strated in us, He will make to complete...

What gives you security on salvation?

 

That is impossible, because you believe in Limited Atonement. You do not know if Jesus died for you. You can look to Jesus all you want, but if he did not die for you, you will die in your sins, your faith is vain.

1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Paul here shows that our faith does not determine reality. You could believe Jesus rose from the dead, but if in reality Jesus did not rise from the dead, then your faith is vain and you will die in your sins.

Likewise, if Jesus did not die for you, you can believe Jesus died for you and your faith is VAIN. You will die and go to hell.

What confidence? That Jesus MIGHT have died for you? How can you have faith in an uncertainty? If Limited Atonement is true, then it is HIGHLY PROBABLE that you are NOT elect, and you will die in your sins.

Because I believe in UNlimited Atonement! Knock, knock, Hello?? Is there anybody home??

 

Limited atonement means that Jesus died in my place, paid in full my sin debt, so fully assured that I will never be lost again!

Do you see salvation was due to you believing in jesus by your own free will?

if so, why couldn't you choose to walk away from him, where is your security?

 

It means no such thing. It means Jesus only died for a few elect persons. If you are one of those elect, all is well and good. But the great probability is that you are not elect and Jesus did not die for you. If so, you can convince yourself you are elect all day long, but your faith is vain and you will go to hell when you die.

This is not rocket science, if Jesus did not die for all men, then you have no way to know if he died for you.

No, Jesus paid my sin for me, but I had to believe to receive this grace. That is God's rule.

No, because my spirit was washed clean and joined or fused into the Holy Spirit to make a new creation. I cannot sin my salvation away because my "seed" the Holy Spirit remains in me.

1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Boy, you really don't get this stuff at all, do you??