A Conversation between a Calvinist and a non-Arminian

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Aki, Jan 23, 2003.

  1. Aki

    Aki
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    Part I of II

    two persons having a conversation.
    one is a calvinist and the other one is not (but more definitely not arminian).

    non-Cavlinist : did Jesus Christ died for all sinners?
    Calvinist: no.
    non-Cavlinist : how come?
    Calvinist: it is God's decision!
    non-Cavlinist : wouldn't God be more graceful if Christ died for all?
    Calvinist: well, that is God's decision and we cannot question that. besides, God is already graceful to have elected some to salvation when in fact everybody deserves condemnation.

    non-Cavlinist : so what happens to the rest?
    Calvinist: they die in their sins.
    non-Cavlinist : what got men condemned in the first place?
    Calvinist: their sins.
    non-Cavlinist : isn't it true that when a child is born he is already condemned?
    Calvinist: yup.
    non-Cavlinist : and it's because of the the original sin of Adam, right?
    Calvinist: right.
    non-Cavlinist : so men get condemned because of a something he did not do, but Adam did, right?
    Calvinist: well...
    non-Cavlinist : so then why did God imputed Adam's sin to everyone, causing everyone to get condemned yet Christ will die only for an elected number of people?
    Calvinist: ....
    non-Cavlinist : maybe it's double predestination, don't you think?

    Calvinist: look, here, men commit sins, and they deserve to die for it. but God is gracious enough to elect some people to salvation.
    non-Cavlinist : but what you should aslo consider is that it is not the sins that men commit that got them condemned.
    Calvinist: and why is that?
    non-Cavlinist : it is because of the original sin.
    Calvinist: but men still commit sin.
    non-Cavlinist : yup. but they do so because they are spiritually dead, because of the imputed sin of Adam. that original sin is the cause that men got condemned. the sins men commit simply reveals they are condemned, and do not add nor cause their condemnation because, again, they are already condemned and spiritually dead before commiting their first sin.

    Calvinist: ...
    non-Cavlinist : is that grace when Christ died only for an elected few while causing others to get condemned?
    Calvinist: how about you? how are you to answer that?
    non-Cavlinist : simple! God condemned everyone so that Christ's death will reach everyone.
    Calvinist: explain further. i don't get what you're saying.
    non-Cavlinist : you see, grace can only come to those who are condemned. that is why God got everyone condemned so that Christ's death will reach everyone.
    Calvinist: but if Christ died for all men, that would men all men should be saved.
    non-Cavlinist : nope.
    Calvinist: how come?
    non-Cavlinist : because having paid for the sins of all men does not make any man acceptable in God's sight, as you and i believe, God' standard is perfect righteousness, which man does not pass simply because Christ paid for their sins.
    Calvinist: you mean because they are not yet justified.
    non-Cavlinist : yup. and those apply their faith to God are the ones to get justified and thus saved.

    then enters Calvinist2:

    Cavlinist2: wait a minute. i agree with most of the things you said. i also believe that Christ died for all men. however, here is my question. who puts their faith in God? will a natural man do?
    non-Cavlinist : therein comes the ministry of the Holy Spirit in convicting men to accept Christ.
    Cavlinist2: does the Holy Spirit convict every man?
    non-Cavlinist : yes.
    Cavlinist2: how come not everyone gets saved?
    non-Cavlinist: it is because grace in not irresistible.
    Cavlinist2: well for me, God makes a general call, and since no one will accept God's offer of salvation, God took one more step which is called the Effectual Calling, by changing the elect's heart, thus making them understand the Gospel, and then accepting Christ becomes a part of their nature.
    non-Cavlinist : as for me, the Holy Spirit's convicting ministry is enough to enlighten every man up to the point that they can accept or reject Christ.

    the first Calvinist still has one thing to argue. (to be continued in part II)

    [ January 24, 2003, 05:23 AM: Message edited by: Aki ]
     
  2. Aki

    Aki
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    Part 2 of 2

    Calvinist: as i understand what you are saying, all sins of all men are already paid for. thus, those who receive the second death are so condemned because of not believing in Christ as their savior, so that they do not receive justification, keeping them unacceptable to God the Father, right?
    non-Calvinist: right.
    Calvinist: can you prove that sins are not the basis of men's condemnation come judgment?
    non-Calvinist: ok. in Ephesians 2:8-9, men are saved by grace and not of works, right?
    Calvinist: right.
    non-Calvinist: what works do you think are reffered to that passage?
    Calvinist: good works, or any work to deserve salvation.
    non-Calvinist: true. now come judgment, those who are not found in the book of life will be judged based on the book of works.
    Calvinist: so you see, they will be judged according to their works, and when sin is found, they will be condemned due to their sins.
    non-Calvinist: not so! remember Ephesians 2:8-9. not of works. but then those who do not have Christ will have nothing left but their works.
    Calvinist: explain further.
    non-Calvinist: the book of works is not actually to find fault on a soul to get him condemned, but to give a last chance for a soul not found in the book of life to pass God's standard. in Ephesians it is by grace, not of works. yet to these men, it is of works, not of grace. thus they are judged according to their works, which are works they do to deserve eternal life. but, of course, they do not pass. as prophecy has it, they will be thrown to the lake of fire, which is the second death. the book of works are the works in Ephesians 2:8-9, which are works to deserve salvation.
    Calvinist: whoa! that is quite a stretch.
     
  3. Yelsew

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    To All of which Jesus said,
    Works don't bring salvation, belief in Jesus, even on his name, brings Salvation...God said so!
     
  4. Bible-belted

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    It is always a sad thing when an individual uses scripture for the purpose of sloganeering for their pet position. Demans the Word.

    Aki,

    There are a few mistakes in your conversation, things that a Calvanist would not say.

    For example, A calvanist would not say that Jesus did not die for all sinners.

    Nor would a calvanist be stumped about the idea of peopel bveing condemned for the sins of one person (Adam) after all, it has a counterpart in the work of one pers, Christ. And double predestination is certainly not required.

    I would also point out that the convicting mnistry of the Spirit is what Calvanist might call the general call, whcih humans universally reject.

    I would also say that your presentation does not do a good job of distinguising between justifcation by faith as a matter of God's grace, and judgment based on works.
     
  5. Jacob

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    Are you sure? Isn't this just Limited Atonement?

    Jacob.
     
  6. Skandelon

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    Besides the misrepresentations of Calvinism in this conversation their is one other thing that is very unrealistic.

    The Arminian refers to scripture more than the Calvinist.

    Now that is just unbelievable!!! [​IMG]
     
  7. Bible-belted

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    Are you sure? Isn't this just Limited Atonement?

    Jacob.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I am sure. LA is about the limits of the application of the atonement.
     
  8. Jacob

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    Are you sure? Isn't this just Limited Atonement?

    Jacob.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I am sure. LA is about the limits of the application of the atonement.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Most of the Calvinists that I know would say something like "Jesus died to save sinners" but never would they insert the word "ALL" in there because they believe that Jesus only died for ELECT sinners.

    Jacob.
     
  9. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    Tis amazing that no one payed any attention to "Part 2 of 2" - there appears to be a lot of selective reading among Calvinists. I take that back, Yelsew appears to have read the second part and says “Works don't bring salvation, belief in Jesus, even on his name, brings Salvation...God said so!” Yelsew, are you accusing Aki of saying that works save? Perhaps you also were reading selectively and missed the statement “thus they are judged according to their works, which are works they do to deserve eternal life. but, of course, they do not pass.”

    [ January 25, 2003, 04:07 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
     
  10. Doubting Thomas

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    Latreia,
    What Scriptural proof can you give for your statement that: "the convicting mnistry (sic) of the Spirit is what Calvanist might call the general call, whcih (sic) humans universally reject."? Particularly, where in the Holy Word does it say the Holy Spirit's convicting work is UNIVERSALLY rejected?
     
  11. Bible-belted

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    You misunderstand.

    I am not saying that grace is resistable. I am saying that what Arminians call the Spirit's convicting work is analogous to what Calvanists call the General Call. Any Scripture an arminian would use to say that the gospel is for all people is one we would use to support a general call.

    The general cal is universally rejected. That's why we have an effectual call.
     
  12. Yelsew

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    If Aki is saying that, the scriptures refute him and not I. I believe that every man's works will be judged, but not unto salvation. Scripture never reveals works as the means of having ones name written in the lambs book of life or keeping one from being thrown into the lake of fire. Works are not part of the salvation equation.

    On the topic of Grace, I suggest that it is not God's grace that is irresistible, but rather the Gospel message. Grace, however, is present and enables the hearing of the Gospel.

    Grace it seems is silent, but gets credit for every good thing. And an apparent 'mysterious absence' of Grace is credited for every evil or bad thing. Grace really gets a bad rap by those who do not know or understand what Grace really is.

    So many think that Grace is the active ingredient in God's formula for the redemption of man. Truly it is an essential, but not the active ingredient. Grace is the medium in which the active ingredient is transferred. For faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God!

    It is faith in God that grace enables, but it is the word of God that is irresistible.

    Grace is not the messenger
    Grace is not the message
    Grace is not the vehicle
    Grace is not Salvation
    Grace is not even the facilitator, that's the work of the Holy Spirit!

    Grace may be, perhaps, the "restrainer" spoken of by Paul in 2 Th 2:6 "And you know, too, what is still holding him back from appearing before his appointed time". Once God removes (stops behaving in accordance with) his Grace, his Justice will increase to the level of his "pent up wrath toward his sinful creation" and woe unto those who refused redemption.

    I thank God for his Grace that enabled me to be able to hear his eternal life giving message, that I found so irresistible.
     
  13. Doubting Thomas

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    Latreia,

    I didn't imply that you believed "grace was resistable". That's not what I asked. I asked for Scriptural support that the CONVICTING work of the Holy Spirit (which is itself an act of grace) UNIVERSALLY rejected? Or if you want to say that, according to Calvinism:
    "Holy Spirit's Conviction = General Call",
    where is the Scriptural proof that the "General Call" is UNIVERSALLY rejected (ie rejected by everyone)?
     
  14. Bible-belted

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    DT,

    Pardon me for misunderstanding you.

    Again, I am not saying what it is you suppose. I am saying that the way that Arminians use the phrase convicting work of the Spirit is roughly analogous in Calvanist thought to the General Call. In Calvanism the General Call is universally rejected.

    As for scritural support, scripture teaches that only thode whom God calls to salvation are saved (see for example Jn. 6:37). But Jesus made calls to people that were rejected, like whn he was in crowds. Therefore thse kinds of general calls cannot be the kind of call that draws one to Christ. Hence the effectual call. The Spirit is in the effectual call in a way that He is not in the general call, since the spirit leads people to repentance (Ro. 8:14, see also 1Peter 5:10).

    Tied into this of course is the doctrine of Total Depravity (see fro example Romans 1-3). People are unable to respond to God unless he grants them to do so, so enslaved by sin are they. Since the general call is not the medium by which that happens, it is univerally rejected.
     
  15. Scott J

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    Works don't bring salvation, belief in Jesus, even on his name, brings Salvation...God said so!</font>[/QUOTE]For context, in the very same passage:



    So Jesus uses the analogy of birth to set the context for vss. 16-18. Do we choose to be born?
     
  16. Yelsew

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    No, but we do choose to be "born-again" as Jesus commanded that we do.
    -------------------------
    Hey! Where'd Joe go?

    Oh! God took 'im to be born again!

    Oh! Well who's gonna fill his spot on the bowlin' team?
    ---------------------
    No, it doesn't work that way, the same physical Joe remains among us before during and after being "born-again". He's just different in behavior and demeanor. Yes, he may drop off the bowlin' team, or not...that is inconsequential. What matters is that he has a new nature, his essence is changed, and he is now gonna live forever.
     
  17. Aki

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    ok. i'll try to respond to as many as i can.

    oh no Lateria! perhaps you are trying not to look on what other Calvinists in this board believe. there are Calvinists here who say Jesus Christ died for everybody while there are others (also Calvinists) who say that Christs died only for the elect - read for yourself. thus, in asserting that a calvinist would not say that Jesus died for all sinners, you are mistaken!

    that is why there is Calvinist and Calvinist2. again, try to read (or consider) everything.

    John Calvin would refute you on this one. saying this would actually mean that someone gets condemned only at the moment a man commits his first sin.

    i know that, but not all Calvinists here would agree to you. you should have known that already.

    i cannot fully comprehend what you said here by know. but i'll think about it. meanwhile, i'm pressed by time. also, can you explain this last statement further?
     
  18. Aki

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    while other arguments in this board defend a belief, others simply give good humor.

    the one i quoted, however, is totally useless.
     
  19. Aki

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    i believe i already made my point, but the way my quoted statement goes, i think i need to make clarification.

    works will not really save. Only grace through faith does! those who do not have Christ have nothing to show to God but their works. so they will try to prove themselves worthy with that. they trying to do that will not change God's standard of grace through faith. only God will let them do that to prove to them that they are not worthy of salvation.
     
  20. Yelsew

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    Agreed AKI.

    I do take exception to the concept of "Grace through faith" however. It is faith acquired while grace prevails that saves.
     

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