A Death Blow to Full (Hyper) Preterism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by John of Japan, Apr 28, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. John of Japan

    John of Japan
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    12,212
    Likes Received:
    192
    We must understand that preterism is not fundamentally based on a mistaken view of prophecy, but this mistaken view of prophecy is based on an un-Biblical hermeneutic. A Biblical view of prophecy and its fulfillment strikes a death blow to the full (hyper) preterist doctrine.

    It's very simple and I believe completely unanswerable by the preterist. Here it is. We all know that OT prophecies of Jesus Christ were fulfilled literally and precisely. I could give many, but most of you know them, I'm sure. So just a few of the most obvious ones:

    Birth at Bethlehem of Ephratah (Micah 5:2 & Matt. 2:5-6)
    Birth of a virgin (Is. 7:14 & Matt. 1:23)
    Lived in Egypt (Hos. 11:1 & Matt. 2:14-15)
    Tribe of Judah, house of David, etc. etc.

    You can easily find many more with a quick Internet search, or in a good book on Biblical prophecy. The best and one of the only books on the interpretation of prophecy is The Interpretation of Prophecy, by Paul Lee Tan. Tan calls prophecy "prewritten history." And history is literal facts, not allegory.

    Now since all OT prophecies of the first coming of Jesus Christ were fulfilled literally for all to see, it naturally follows that prophecies of Christ will be fulfilled literally. Any other view--any preterist view that denies a literal, physical 2nd coming of Jesus Christ is simply wrong and un-Biblical.

    Oh, and by the way. Until the end of the 2nd century all church fathers, all Christian writings interpreted literally. According to Tan, Pantaenus in about 180 AD was the first to suggest allegorical interpretation (p. 48), and of course Origen was the one who popularized it in the 3rd century. Those early Christians all simply believed the literal sense of the Bible.
     
    #1 John of Japan, Apr 28, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 28, 2011
  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,504
    Likes Received:
    454
    :thumbs: Absolutely right!
     
  3. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    seems that they have a problem is seeing that the Bible teaches that:
    There is the aspect of the Kingdom being present in person/ministry of Jesus
    That is the spiritual Kingdom He spoke about while here
    There IS coming the fullness of that Kingdom. when he returns to the earth, to have Kingdom in earnest here, with Him ruling as the messiah over earth
    that there ARE partial fulfillments to OT prophecies back than, full fulfillments not yet
    That God made literal promises to isreal. Jews, why fulfill them strictly at His first coming, yet turn to fulfilling them in allegorical"spiritua;" sense at His Second coming?
    When did Armegeddon occur? When we translated into heaven glorified? When did jesus take His"direct" rein over the earth?
     
  4. John of Japan

    John of Japan
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    12,212
    Likes Received:
    192
    Any full preterists have the guts to answer this?
     
  5. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    If that is the best evidence against full preterism then I predict full preterism will grow by leaps and bounds in the coming generations.

    Did all those early Christians also interpret the time statements literally?
     
  6. John of Japan

    John of Japan
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    12,212
    Likes Received:
    192
    That's no answer. Since you are so sure of this, give an answer. Since all the OT prophecies of the first coming of Jesus Christ were literally fulfilled without fail, why then will the prophecies of the 2nd coming of Christ not be literally fulfulled instead of "spiritually" fulfilled?

    We have a clear, obvious and literal hermeneutic taught in the interpretation of OT quotes in the NT. Christians ignore this and "spiritualize" at their spiritual peril.
    Yes they did, absolutely. All the early Christian writers who touched on the subject without fail wrote of a literal 2nd coming of Christ. I have shown on another thread how the Didache did so (never answered by a preterist). There was no allegorical, "spiritual" interpretation of the Word of God until the end of the 2nd century, and it did not become popular until Origen in mid-3rd century.
     
  7. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,928
    Likes Received:
    96
    Wow....sounds so threating ....also laughable. all at the same time. Are you spoiling for a fight? :laugh:
     
  8. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    That is quite a statement you have made. On what grounds or basis do you make it. I believe there are some 300 prophecies in the OT that were made concerning the first coming of Christ, all of which were literally fulfilled. Based on those promises and the integrity and veracity of the Word of God, do we have any reason to doubt God when he says he is coming a second time "in the same manner as he went."

    Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:11)
     
  9. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
     
  10. Benjamin

    Benjamin
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,887
    Likes Received:
    112
    I have no eggs in either basket (Dispensationalism or full Preterism) but since JOJ seems to have put on gloves and pulls "literal" out in the round ...:smilewinkgrin:

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
     
  12. John of Japan

    John of Japan
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    12,212
    Likes Received:
    192
    Let me get this straight. You believe that OT prophecy fulfilled literally in the NT birth, life and death of Christ have nothing to do with NT prophecy? What is your epistemology on this?

    And the comings of God in the OT were not physical manifestations? Agreed. So does that to you mean that the birth of Christ in the NT was not a physical birth? Surely you'll admit that the first coming of Christ was physical. And the resurrection of Christ was physical, right? So once again, why would not the 2nd coming of Christ be physical?

    This issue of the 2nd Coming of Christ is hardly an exact parallel to God, who is a Spirit, manifesting Himself in spirit form to OT saints. Let's even go further. Do you agree that there are preincarnate appearances of Christ? And that those were physical? If so, then why will not the 2nd coming be physical?

    Christ came physically in literal fulfillment of OT prophecy, therefore He will come physically in literal fulfillment of NT prophecy. To say otherwise is to ignore the fact that Christ is God become flesh.

    So, we have preincarnate appearances of Christ in the flesh, we have the literal, physical birth and literal, physical resurrection of Christ. This clearly means that in any Biblical hermeneutic Christ will come the 2nd time in the flesh.
    Trying to derail the thread, eh?
     
  13. John of Japan

    John of Japan
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    12,212
    Likes Received:
    192
    This is actually a problem to you? Incredibly simple. That's like saying, "Is a man on a horse on a truck on the truck or on the horse?" Just plain silly!
     
  14. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
     
  15. John of Japan

    John of Japan
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    12,212
    Likes Received:
    192
    You seem to have missed the point of this thread. It is not about dispensationalism or even premil. It is about a literal 2nd coming of Christ, something that amils and postmils agree with premils on. Stick to the thread please.
     
  16. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    The coming in Revelation that John said would happen shortly? The coming Jesus said would happen in His generation? The coming the writer of the book of Hebrews said would come and not tarry? Etc.......

    You cannot divorce the time statements from the topic no matter how much you don't want to deal with them. Are the time statements not inspired? Does parousia mean physical coming?

    God established a Kingdom in the OT, He also predicted a future Kingdom. Does it mean it must be physical as well? You probably do but many non FP do not think so. God also established a physical Temple in the OT and He promised a future Temple. Does that mean the future Temple must be physical? Paul didn't think so. So your entire supposition is moot.
     
  17. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
     
  18. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
     
  19. John of Japan

    John of Japan
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    12,212
    Likes Received:
    192
    I really don't have time to deal with this whole complicated issue this morning. I'm working on the translation of Rom. 15, and have to leave for the church shortly to work with Uncle Miya on Phil.

    But I will say this, that yes, parousia definitely means physical coming. It is used undisputably for that in:

    1 Cor. 16:17--I am glad of the coming of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus: for that which was lacking on your part they have supplied.

    2 Cor. 17:6&7--Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, comforted us by the coming of Titus;
    And not by his coming only, but by the consolation wherewith he was comforted in you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning, your fervent mind toward me; so that I rejoiced the more.

    2 Cor. 10:10--For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.

    Phil 1:26--That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

    Phil 2:12--Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

    So since in every single case when parousia is used of humans in the NT who were not Christ, then obviously, yes, parousia means a literal coming when applied to Christ also.
     
  20. mandym

    mandym
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,991
    Likes Received:
    0
    genea (grk) can be used in one of several ways, age, generation, nation, or time.

    Which in this context it is most probable that it means nation.



    tachu (grk) can be used in one of several ways, shortly, without delay, suddenly, lightly, or quickly.

    Which in this case it is most probable that it is referring to suddenly.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...