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A different Gospel? or not?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by rjprince, Jan 4, 2005.

?

Was the Gospel preached by Jesus & the Apostles the same Gospel Paul preached?

  1. Yes

    60 vote(s)
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  2. No

    0 vote(s)
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  1. trailblazer

    trailblazer New Member

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    Different gospel? Than what Christ taught in Luke 17? Absolutely!
     
    #101 trailblazer, Jan 12, 2005
  2. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    JackRUS, (do you like small smart white dogs with black and brown markings?)

    Yep. Prolly shuuda used a lower case "g". Sorry bout that. Just have a hard time writing it with a small g. Did explain meaning as being "good news" earlier on this thread though.

    DEFINITELY NOT a hyper D, but I have read Stam et al. Probably not even as classic D as I once was. No longer argue strongly for seven. Can only make a real strong case for three or four from the Word. Not that God's manner of dealing with mankind and that man's responsibility and method of approaching God has not changed, they have. I think it is just as reasonable to interpret and apply Scripture in terms of the BIBLICAL covenants as to use a dispensational scheme. I do hold to a clear distinction between the Jews, Gentiles, and the Church (made up of both Jew and Gentile). And I am certainly NOT PD (Progressive Disp).

    Yes, water baptism by immersion is a "first step" of obedience to the Lord. It pictures our identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus. I say, "I the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" when I baptize, though I would not have a falling out with those who only said, "in the name of Jesus".

    Does that answer your question?
     
    #102 rjprince, Jan 13, 2005
  3. trailblazer

    trailblazer New Member

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    Ed doesn't like Christ's words in Luke. It's too literal maybe?

    Originally posted by trailblazer:
     
    #103 trailblazer, Jan 13, 2005
  4. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    Yes that does answer my question.

    Usually when I encounter the two Gospels argument it comes from hyperdispys.

    Are the Jack Russels my favorites, no, and that is not how I came up with my handle. (actually I'm a cat owner). However in the past I have been compared to a terrier when I post. ;)
     
    #104 JackRUS, Jan 14, 2005
  5. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    It's strange that believing bible statements, terms, and identification of subject matter is termed by others as hyperdispensationalism. Oh well, Paul SAID he was "accused" of heresy, but it was SIMPLE belief and worshipping the God of his fathers! (Acts 24)

    Again, the gospel preached by the 12 BEFORE the crucifixion DID NOT contain the elements of Paul's gospel. They were not understood, unlearned, and unbelieved. (Compare Luke 18 with 1 Cor.15) They preached the gospel of the kingdom at hand DURING Christ's earthly ministry, while Paul preached the gospel of the grace of God, WHICH WAS NOT REVEALED until Paul. (Gal.1-2) The gospel of God (circumcision) as Peter preached in Acts 2 was LEARNED in Luke 24 and Mark 16 FROM CHRIST after his resurrection, which CONTAINED water baptism. Paul's DIDN'T. (1 Cor.1)

    Who can READ the scriptures? Better yet, who can believe them?
     
    #105 carlaimpinge, Jan 14, 2005
  6. trailblazer

    trailblazer New Member

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    You still hanging on to Darby RJ? Any 8 year old can figure Luke 17 out because they haven't been indoctrinated by false teachers yet.

     
    #106 trailblazer, Jan 15, 2005
  7. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    Will come back to Luke 17 and your "Theology of an Eight year old" next week. Sorry, just could not resist that subtle overhead slam. It was there, I took it. Hope it did not leave a bruise. See you then.
     
    #107 rjprince, Jan 15, 2005
  8. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    Trailblazer,

    Re Luke 17, interesting how you put the “s” in verse 26 in parenthesis. Did you think we would not notice that it was plural not singular - en tais hmerais (h=eta). Days (plural) also appears in verse 22.

    In any case, let’s look at the passage starting with v. 24

    24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

    The second coming will be a “global event” from one part under heaven to the other part under heaven.

    25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

    Jesus must die first.

    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    Life was going on as usual when the flood came. It will be going on as usual when Christ returns in judgement upon unbelievers.

    28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

    Same idea as with Noah, life as normal, then comes judgement.

    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    Jesus will come on a set day. His coming will be in one day.

    31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

    Lots wive looked back to the city with longing and was judged. If they are to escape judgment on that day, they must not turn back to the city.

    32 Remember Lot’s wife.
    33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    Covered this on another thread, but when judgement comes, you do not want to be taken. You want to be left. After the flood, everyone else was dead. Noah and his family was left. After the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot and his daughters were left.

    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

    After the judgement that accompanies His second coming, the vultures will eat the flesh of those judged.

    NONE OF THIS IN ANY WAY DISCOUNTS OR DISCREDITS PREMILLENNIALISM!!!

    I ask, does 3 singular uses of “day”, minus 2 plural uses of “days”, leaving us with only 1 net use of day still have the same impact? Pardon my silliness for a moment. I have lowered my hermeneutical practices to a substandard level for a moment to make a point.

    The fact that Jesus will return on one set day, to which I readily assent, in no way indicates that all the events of the “day of the Lord” will occur on one day! Just check out every instance of “day of the Lord” to realize the folly of your contention from Luke 17. Here are the 27 occurrences of the phrase in the AV – Isa 2:12; 13:6, 9; Jer 46:10; Ezek 13:5; 30:3; Joel 1:15; 2:1, 11, 31; 3:14; Amos 5:18, 20; Obad 1:15; Zeph 1:7, 8, 14, 18; 2:2, 3; Zech 14:1; Mal 4:5; Acts 2:20; 1Cor 5:5; 2Cor 1:14; 1Thes 5:2; 2Pet 3:10.

    Some of the events occurred at Pentecost. Some of the events of the Day of the Lord have yet to occur.

    DID WANT TO POINT OUT A SERIOUS ERROR IN YOUR INTERPRETATION OF THE PASSAGE.

    Here is the fundamental flaw, THERE IS NO MENTION OF RESURRECTION HERE!!! IN FACT, THEIR ACTIVITY PRECLUDES SUCH A READING INTO THE TEXT – “grinding together” and “in the field”. How do you get resurrection out of this?

    If this is resurrection, what is meant by not going back into the house to get his stuff?

    Your ludicrous interpretation of this passage is totally without foundation.
     
    #108 rjprince, Jan 17, 2005
  9. trailblazer

    trailblazer New Member

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    I checked out 9, yes, 9 commentaries today and ALL nine verified that the Second Coming in Luke 17 would be to separate the just from the unjust and that Jesus reason for using Lot and Noah was because it shows two events of salvation and punishment taking place ON THE SAME DAY!!
     
    #109 trailblazer, Jan 17, 2005
  10. trailblazer

    trailblazer New Member

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    Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown, (on Luke 17)

    24. as lightning . . . so . . . the Son of man--that is it will be as manifest. The Lord speaks here of His coming and manifestation in a prophetically indefinite manner, and in these preparatory words blends into one the distinctive epochs [STIER]. When the whole polity of the Jews, civil and ecclesiastical alike, was broken up at once, and its continuance rendered impossible by the destruction of Jerusalem, it became as manifest to all as the lightning of heaven that the kingdom of God had ceased to exist in its old, and had entered on a new and perfectly different form. So it may be again, ere its final and greatest change at the personal coming of Christ, and of which the words in their highest sense are alone true.
     
    #110 trailblazer, Jan 17, 2005
  11. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    Blazer,

    Just for clarification, you said “resurrection”. Did any of the nine find resurrection in Luke 17?

    And yes, there will be both judgement and salvation in that same day. That day will not contain ALL judgement, or ALL deliverance. But THAT ONE DAY will definitely be a day of both salvation and judgement, no argument there.

    How does that make your point?
     
    #111 rjprince, Jan 17, 2005
  12. trailblazer

    trailblazer New Member

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    RJ,

    Really! No resurrection in Luke 17????? Get honest!
    Matthew Henry,...7. That all good Christians should certainly escape, but many of them very narrowly, from that destruction, v. 34–36. When God’s judgments are laying all waste, he will take an effectual course to preserve those that are his, by remarkable providences distinguishing between them and others that were nearest to them: two in a bed, one taken and the other left; one snatched out of the burning and taken into a place of safety, while the other is left to perish in the common ruin. Note, Though the sword devours one as well as another, and all things seem to come alike to all, yet sooner or later it shall be made to appear that the Lord knows them that are his and them that are not, and how to take out the precious from the vile. We are sure that the Judge of all the earth will do right; and therefore, when he sends a judgment on purpose to avenge the death of his Son upon those that crucified him, he will take care that none of those who glorified him, and gloried in his cross, shall be taken away by that judgment.
     
    #112 trailblazer, Jan 17, 2005
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    The claim that the Gospel preached by Jesus and the Apostles is different than the Gospel preached by the Apostle Paul is heretical. Paul tells us in Galatians 1:8, 9

    8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


    In the Gospel according to Mark we read in chapter 1:

    1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

    14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God.


    In the Gospel according to John we read in John 3:3:

    Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


    In the Gospel of Luke Jesus Christ tells the two disciples on the road to Emmaus [Luke 24:25-27]:

    25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
    26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
    27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


    In Acts the Apostle Paul tells us:

    Acts 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
    Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.


    We also read from the Book of Acts, chapter 28:

    30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
    31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

    Finally Paul tells us in Romans, chapter 1

    16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

    I repeat on the basis of Scripture: The claim that the Gospel preached by Jesus and the Apostles is different than the Gospel preached by the Apostle Paul is heretical.
     
    #113 OldRegular, Jan 17, 2005
  14. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    Blazer,

    Blazer, again,

    The fact that JFB understands Luke 17 according to a preterist interpretaion does not make it so. No more than the fact that 95% or better of all commentaries found in print in the 1400's could have proved that the Pope was the "Vicar of God" just because they affirmed it to be so.

    Commentaries are well and good. AND JFB is a good commentary, I use it. Here, they are wrong.

    Regarding the future of Israel being an impossibility, listen to what they say about a future restoration of Israel at Rom 11:26 - “And so all Israel shall be saved—To understand this great statement, as some still do, merely of such a gradual inbringing of individual Jews, that there shall at length remain none in unbelief, is to do manifest violence both to it and to the whole context. It can only mean the ultimate ingathering of Israel as a nation, in contrast with the present "remnant." (So THOLUCK, MEYER, DE WETTE, PHILIPPI, ALFORD, HODGE).”

    Please, do not make it sound like JFB fully supports all the amil conclusions you are suggesting!
     
    #114 rjprince, Jan 17, 2005
  15. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    Oldreg,

    Paul preached the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus. That was his gospel (1Cor 15:1-4).

    Show me where Jesus and the apostles preached that as part of the "gospel of the kingdom" before you accuse me of being a heretic. Those are pretty strong words and so far nothing you have said has justified their use.
     
    #115 rjprince, Jan 17, 2005
  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    As I noted earlier Mark introduces his Gospel with the words:

    Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

    He then tells us that Jesus Christ began His ministry preaching the gospel of kingdom of God:

    Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God.[/i]


    From the Book of Acts, chapter 28, we see that Paul preached the Kingdom of God:

    30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
    31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

    There is only one Kingdom of God, Jesus Christ preached it at the start of His ministry and Paul preached it throughout his ministry. It is not I that say the claim of more than one Gospel is heresy, it is the Apostle Paul. Please note the following Scripture which I repeat:

    Galatians 1:6-8
    6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    As far as Jesus Christ teaching about His death and resurrection I refer you to the following Scripture:

    Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

    Matthew 17:23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

    Luke 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.


    I repeat on the basis of Scripture: The claim that the Gospel preached by Jesus and the Apostles is different than the Gospel preached by the Apostle Paul is heretical.
     
    #116 OldRegular, Jan 17, 2005
  17. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    Oldreg,

    Did you read this whole thread? or just jump in here? I do that sometimes.

    In any case, Paul preached the same Jesus. He preached from the same OT. He depended on the same Holy Spirit (now indwelling all believers). He was in harmony with the "good news" that had already been given.

    BUT, and this is a BIG BUT! Neither Jesus, nor the apostles preached the gospel of 1Cor 15:1-4 until after it happened! Yes, they preached the gospel. Yes, it was good news. NO IT WAS NOT THE GOSPEL OF THE CROSS!!!

    I asked you to show me –
    The fact that Jesus taught the 12 about the Cross does not mean that they preached it as part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. EVEN THE 12 did not understand it, or very much believe it!
     
    #117 rjprince, Jan 17, 2005
  18. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    Old reg,

    As far as Gal 1:8, this is talking about adding works to salvation! Show me where I have preached "another gospel"!!! (heteros - of a different kind!).
     
    #118 rjprince, Jan 17, 2005
  19. trailblazer

    trailblazer New Member

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    Rj

    Checked out Romans. JFB does hold that Israel, as a nation, are still beloved of God and that God will in the future recover them from their unbelief. However, at the end of this, and I believe through this, that it is ONLY salvation that is in mind here, and I would certainly agree with that (for the time being). But, in NO way does he imply, or even consider, the possibility of a literal, kingdom as pre-mil's idea of national Israel is - and that is why my portion that I quoted, does agree with, and, is consistent with both sections of yours and mine.

     
    #119 trailblazer, Jan 17, 2005
  20. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Seems like people are hung up on the word Gospel. It’s all good news about salvation through Jesus Christ. Thinking of it as what it means “good news” I would say it’s pretty undeniable that it comes in different forms, for different people, at different times. There is one God and He Comes in different forms and to say there is three Gods is one thing, but the word Gospel though always leading to that special gift of grace through Jesus is not that same type of definitive word. Is it? BTW who ever started limiting the word Gospel?
     
    #120 Benjamin, Jan 18, 2005
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