Im sure everyone is drained of these discussions, but I ran across a different view of who the elect are on another board. I havent had time to sit down and analyze this, but has anyone ever heard this and what are your thoughts? He said, "According to Scripture "believing" begins with the One that promised----God. And precisely those that believe God are called to the Son. Only those that believe God will even recognize their sin and need of a Savior. And Christ said "those of the truth hear My Voice." Christ also said that those that have learned from God, are those that are drawn to and given to Him (Jn 6). (No one learns from God unless they believe Him.). Hence the elect are those that believe God----and everyone that does is predestined to have faith in the Son of God. So saith Paul. God's power is great toward those that believe. No one is born again or made alive until "faith in Christ." It is "faith to faith" according to Paul (Rm 1:16-17) and also John (Jn 5:1-12). If one does not believe God neither can they have faith in the Son of Man, as precisely the same people always will." here is a source he gave me to check out on the view- "Does God Lie? Faith then Elect or Elect then Faith" by Melvin R. Nelson, Ph.D that shows how many people have been misled doctrinally since the time of Augustine, and how the Scriptures should most likely be interpreted in a different way.