A different view of the elect?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by zrs6v4, Jan 5, 2010.

  1. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4
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    Im sure everyone is drained of these discussions, but I ran across a different view of who the elect are on another board. I havent had time to sit down and analyze this, but has anyone ever heard this and what are your thoughts?
    He said,
    "According to Scripture "believing" begins with the One that promised----God. And precisely those that believe God are called to the Son. Only those that believe God will even recognize their sin and need of a Savior.

    And Christ said "those of the truth hear My Voice." Christ also said that those that have learned from God, are those that are drawn to and given to Him (Jn 6). (No one learns from God unless they believe Him.).

    Hence the elect are those that believe God----and everyone that does is predestined to have faith in the Son of God. So saith Paul. God's power is great toward those that believe. No one is born again or made alive until "faith in Christ." It is "faith to faith" according to Paul (Rm 1:16-17) and also John (Jn 5:1-12).

    If one does not believe God neither can they have faith in the Son of Man, as precisely the same people always will."


    here is a source he gave me to check out on the view- "Does God Lie? Faith then Elect or Elect then Faith" by Melvin R. Nelson, Ph.D that shows how many people have been misled doctrinally since the time of Augustine, and how the Scriptures should most likely be interpreted in a different way.
     
  2. zrs6v4

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    For the record, I dont believe that the elect are those who first believed in God. He used Lydia and Cornelius testimony as examples in a later post.
     
  3. Winman

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    I agree with all of those except this:

    You are not predestined to have faith in God or Christ. God does not determine who believes. If God determines who believes, why wouldn't he determine that all men believe?

    God gives you the resource to believe, his Word. That poster was correct, faith starts with a promise. Think about that, what else can you do with a promise except believe it or not? There is absolutely nothing else you can do with a promise. Do you know of anything you can do with a promise except believe it or not?

    Believing is not a supernatural force. It is simply a choice of whether the person making the promise is telling the truth, or lying. When you do not believe God's promises, you are calling him a liar. It really is that simple.

    You are making a judgement about God when you believe his promises. You are judging him to be truthful and honest. This pleases God. If you do not believe his promises, you are judging him to be a liar. This does not please God. It is not a work believing, but it is a judgment.

    Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

    1 John 5: 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

    The scriptures do not teach a man is regenerated to have faith, they teach faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Now, that doesn't mean just audibly hearing it, it means to hear it and believe it, to judge it to be true.

    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Do you believe that, or not?

    So, if you want faith, just read every word of God and believe it. Jesus would not command you to believe if you were not able.

    John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
     
    #3 Winman, Jan 6, 2010
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  4. Skandelon

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    I think its interesting that Calvinists always use these two as examples for their views, but aren't both of these referred to ones who "fear the Lord" or "worship God" prior to their gospel conversion? How does that fit exactly?
     
  5. zrs6v4

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    What do they use Cornelius' story for?
     
  6. webdog

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  7. zrs6v4

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    or why does He allow pain and suffering, why did he create Satan, why did he let Satan enter the garden, Why does He let infants and small children suffer? Lets not get started on those topics...

    Yep, faith comes by hearing.

    Do you think God gives commands that people are not able to keep?
     
  8. Skandelon

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    I misspoke, I meant they often refer to Lydia, but in reply Arminians can refer to what is said about Lydia and Cornelius prior to their hearing the gospel message. Do Calvinists believe they were regenerated prior to hearing the gospel? Was Lydia regenerated prior to even having her heart opened?
     
  9. zrs6v4

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    yes they do, I would say that the Holy Spirit did something. Dont you hold that God's Spirit isnt necessary in hearing the word and believing?
     
  10. David Michael Harris

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    I can't get passed the believing thing at the moment and that after and during the drawing work of God to Christ.

    After 25 years as a born again person I cannot ignore this.
     
  11. zrs6v4

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    It sounds good, but I think she pushes a few points a little much. I respect her for attempting to be faithful to Scripture. We all struggle with this when our views come into play..
     
  12. zrs6v4

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    I understand that, I think that sometimes we do spend to much time in this subject as well.

    Now, I read on another thread that you mentioned that the Holy Spirit is the one who comes in and does this change of mind in our repentance.

    The truth is that Repentance is not only the change of our minds, but our hearts, and our wills (direction).

    So if God causes our being to desire Him, which sounds pretty irresistable, then we naturally come to embrace Him as Lord and Savior- then you are close to agreeing with Calvinist's on this point. God doesn't believe for us, but by the work of the Spirit through the Gospel He comes in and turns us from our wickedness inside (in our inner man) and this change expresses itself with faith and external repentance (fruit). Through our coming to Him in faith He imparts other gifts (forgiveness) and the Spirit comes in and dines with us for eternity (receiving the Spirit).

    It really doesn't matter whether you agree with reformers or not in my opinion, hah, but if you through Scripture see the same thing they see then you agree with them.
     
    #12 zrs6v4, Jan 7, 2010
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  13. David Michael Harris

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    I admit it is close.

    But we open that door that we enter into. :) After it's finished, for us so to speak.
     
    #13 David Michael Harris, Jan 7, 2010
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  14. David Michael Harris

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    Is this not another of example of Calvinism protecting itself? Whats wrong with the Gospel and whosoever. Oh I forgot it's not for all.

    Sorry mate. Study church history a bit. Don't mean to be rude but see you in another post.
     
  15. webdog

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    If you don't mind to elaborate, which ones?
     
  16. zrs6v4

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    NO its not a defense of Calvinism. My original intent was to discuss another view of the elect. I almost added that in my original post that I didnt want to discuss anything else. I didnt put this because it would be unfair to avoid any rabbit trails. I didnt start the rabbit trails either :)

    There is nothing wrong with the Gospel and whosoever and nobody has ever said that the offer isn't for whosoever. The offer is for all, and all who come are saved.

    I agree we can end it here.
     
  17. David Michael Harris

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    No it's me, a very busy day.

    Off to chill a bit.

    Start a post on the Elect. For me at the moment God's foreknowledge and righteousness is where it is at.
     
  18. zrs6v4

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    I really dont want to get into this, but here is the first that I disagreed with.

    First would be her Romans 9 argument that it was only written to the nation of Israel. This is like saying that Revelation chapter 2 is only written to the church. The church is full of individuals who make up the church and not only is God speaking of Israel being chosen, but also Abraham,Isaac, Jacob, David, etc... As you read on through Romans 9 it shows how God's large choices also affect small choices. If God chooses nations, then He also chooses people to make up nations. You cant just interpret Romans 9:11-12 in light of Romans 9:11-12, but must read through the rest of the chapter and In my opinion it is much clearer that God's election extends to individuals.

    She uses Malachi 1, where Paul is quoting from. Malachi 1 was speaking of Israel, but Paul is taking it to apply to salvation of God's chosen people. Paul is showing that it is not only the children of Israel who are children of God, although He loves them greatly but that God's children are of Jews and Gentiles. I also believe from Romans 12-30 that He is applying this sovereign election to all people. She seems to just stop at her point of Romans 9 only speaking of Israel and I think it is unfair to Romans 9:1-33 and probably the rest of the letter that Paul wrote. This is why I think that her Study possibly might be affected by her past view "against Calvinism" as all of our studies can easily be and are.

    Maybe we should stop here or we may have a 600 page thread. :)
     
    #18 zrs6v4, Jan 7, 2010
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  19. zrs6v4

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    hehe, I hear you on that.
     
  20. zrs6v4

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    If anyone cares to address the OP feel free :) it is a strange view in my opinion. I can see how living Jews who were faithful and loved the God of Israel in that time were led to Christ and the fullness of the NC promise, but I just don't see that applying to everyone then and even today. I don't understand the intricacies of his view, but I thought it was an interesting take (which there are many of them haha)....
     

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