A Foot-washing mentality - long

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by trainbrainmommy, Feb 16, 2007.

  1. trainbrainmommy

    trainbrainmommy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2007
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    0
    Foot-washing Mentality

    I don't want to beat the same horse, over and over, but I feel there is more to say.

    The more I hear, read, and experience in the issue of pastors who claim complete authority over every aspect of the church and even delve into church members’ homes, the more disgusted and perplexed I am. It is inconceivable to me that men who have been trained in BIBLE colleges and seminaries could actually believe that they have lordship – complete authority - over the believers in their churches! I am just as dismayed at deacon boards who abuse their power in numbers and seem to enjoy tormenting the pastor. And I realize there are congregations who glory in the fact that they can rally their cliques to sway the direction of the church.

    However, the trend at this time seems to be an increased number of pastors – SBC and IFBC - who are following the lead of Paige Patterson and Paul Pressler. From the small reading I have done on them - these two men desired to change the direction of the SBC. Before these two men began to pull strings, the role of the pastor in this context was to preach and teach, to train the congregation for service, to care for the needs of the congregation, and to provide administrative coordination to the work of the church. Pastors were viewed as servants of the church. One of the men Patterson and Pressler promoted, W. A. Criswell said, "Lay leadership of the church is unbiblical when it weakens the pastor's authority as ruler of the church . . . a laity-led church will be a weak church anywhere on God's earth. The pastor is ruler of the church." In 1988 the Southern Baptist Convention passed a resolution affirming that the pastor was the ruler of the church. IFB pastors have bought into this mindset, as well.

    First, let me say that I have no problem following or “submitting to” my pastor. He is quick to differentiate between his preferences and Scriptural mandates. If DH and I have a question, we can go to him and he will share his perspective and the Scripture or principle upon which his perspective is based. We do not always agree, but we are willing to do things his way in church. He is a true shepherd – caring for the flock, and teaching and preaching. He doesn’t puff himself up, saying, “This is what the church will do because ‘I AM THE PASTOR’. When I hear of pastors who have to say this, I am reminded of a small child standing on a chair, yelling, “I’M THE BOSS.” :laugh:

    I feel Luke 22 is explicitly clear that Christ did not intend for the disciples/apostles or pastors – or anyone else - to have rule over other Christians. Christ told his followers – the apostles – they were not to exercise authority over others. Christ said the kings of Gentiles exercised lordship over others. Doesn’t sound like He was advocating the mindset of complete pastoral authority. WHERE IS THE BALANCE?!

    The same word that was translated ‘obey’ in Hebrews 13:17 was also translated “agree”, “assure”, “believe”, “have confidence”, “be confident”, “make friend”, “persuade”, “trust” and “yield”. It means to convince, by analogy - To pacify or conciliate, to assent or to rely (Strong’s Concordance). Doesn’t this mean to be teachable? We should be listening and comparing what is taught to Scripture (like the Bereans who compared what Paul taught to other Scripture – and Paul didn’t call it ‘questioning’!) and be persuaded to follow, IF what they teach is found in God’s Word. Vine’s says “to persuade, to win over” or “to be persuaded, to listen to, to obey.” It goes on to state, “The ‘obedience’ suggested is not by submission to authority, but resulting from persuasion.”

    If we look at how Christ sent out the disciples (apostles) in Matthew 10, He made it clear that their emphasis in ministering was to be on the message, not the “perks”. When the first churches were established, the pattern was influenced by the Roman Empire, which was all about hierarchy and rule of order. It is implied, if not spoken openly, that many preachers feel God can only speak to the church through THEM – or other preachers from within their own “camp”. I Cor. 14 speaks of how the service should be orderly, but it mentions multiple speakers “prophets, two or three” v.29. I am particularly curious about verse 36. It seems to put the proud speakers in their place – the Word did not originate with them and it did not come only to them.

    A pastor does have the Authority of God’s Word to preach and God’s Word instructs the pastor to be a shepherd. However, I do not see where Biblical principles promote that the pastor have control over every aspect of their church. That belief contradicts Acts 6 where the apostles appointed disciples to take care of the daily ministrations and committed themselves to prayer and to the ministry of the Word. Wouldn't it be a relief and a privilege and a blessing to all involved if the pastor could concentrate on these things and not on making sure the toilets are clean or on deciding how to spend church funds?

    It seems that the bottom line, when it comes to who has the authority in a church – pastor or deacons or congregation – comes down to who wants to control the money. Do we really want the role of Judas? Wasn’t his desire to control the money part of his downfall? It isn’t money that is evil – it is the love of the money - the compulsion to control church funds – that is sin. When a pastor has to have the FINAL SAY, it negates every humble, servant-like (Christ-like!) word or action that preceded. Where is the power of God in that?

    Please do not say, "You don't understand pastoral authority as it is a biblical principle." I do understand what is trying to be purported as truth and believe it is an erroneous perspective, if not false teaching. Those pastors who exclaim “REBELLION!” are the ones who really need to read Luke 22 and similar passages repeatedly until they “get it”. If the same pastors, OR church members who try to claim authority over the pastor, would have a good, old-fashioned foot washing service (gasp!) :eek: some of the absurdity of authority would fade away.

    1 Dr. Rick McClatchy & Dr. Bruce Prescott, centerforbaptiststudies
     
  2. amity

    amity
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2006
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    0
    What does this have to do with feet washing, pray tell? Silly me, when I clicked on this thread I expected to find something about feet washing..

    I attend a church that washes feet, and also has a pastorate that has no formal training, e.g. in seminary or Bible college, and authority is very decentralized. So I am a bit mystified as to what the connection between these two things and an authoritarian pastorate might be? Where are you coming from on that?

    Other than that confusion, I think you make some good points.
     
    #2 amity, Feb 16, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2007
  3. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    I practice footwashing.















    Every day, sometimes TWICE a day! :tonofbricks:
     
  4. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    The Lord Jesus Christ Himself washed the feet of His apostles in order to instill lessons of humility among His people, and the action pictures how we ought to be serving one another.
    It is not a debasing act, nor is it an act of unquestioning submission to each other, as may be what is going on in trainbrainmommy's mind when she referred to it as some sort of a "mentality".
    I also had occassion to wash the feet of my brethren in Maryland, and look forward to doing so again, the Lord willing.
     
  5. trainbrainmommy

    trainbrainmommy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2007
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    0

    If Christians would apply the humility and servant's heart it requires to wash a Christian brother's (sister's) feet to every aspect of the ministry, I do not believe there would be the problem there is with people fighting for power or asserting complete authority. It is a mentality - a way of thinking - about how Christians are to treat each other.

    I, too, have participated in footwashing and know what it does in the heart.
     
  6. trainbrainmommy

    trainbrainmommy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2007
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    0
    I thought the mentality part of the title would differentiate my post from one that would have addressed literal foot-washing. If authoritarian pastors would try washing the feet of the believers they try to control, I believe their hearts would be changed.
     
  7. trainbrainmommy

    trainbrainmommy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2007
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm sure we're all glad! :laugh:
     
  8. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    ORDERS and ADVICE

    of the


    SARDIS ASSOCIATION


    OF


    OLD REGULAR BAPTIST



    THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST


    1893 to 1989



    10th: We believe that feet washing is an ordinance of Jesus Christ and ought to be observed and kept up by His Church until His Second Coming.
     
    #8 Brother Bob, Feb 16, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2007
  9. rbell

    rbell
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    11,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Foot washing is good for the sole.

    (I chose to be humorous rather than comment on Mr. Pressler. What I would have to say regarding him would be less than edifying).
     
  10. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    explanation accepted, trainbrainmommy.
    I apologize if I had said anything which may have misconstrued your meaning.
     
  11. abonmarche'

    abonmarche'
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mexdeaf I practice footwashing.

    WOW! Mexdeaf you are a ---HOOT !!!
    :laugh:

    That is what Peter said --He wanted a total bath--not just feet.
    They are all at a party and they all had baths already--Peter did not get it!
    Message is thawt Jesus was showing these stupid people near his last days on earth is that HE (Jesus) was there to save them and be their servant. Not Peter to go on the cross for the atonement of all these people's sins. Really amazies me that they knew the Old testament better then us Irish Gentiles! I get it why not them?







    Every day, sometimes TWICE a day! :tonofbricks:[/quote]
     
  12. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Interesting...

    ...all these people involved in actual foot washing.

    I am Led to believe that foot washing symbolized forgiving one another of sins they might be holding against each other so that all could partake of the "Agape feast" --- communion --- worthily.

    Isn't that the thrust of 1Cor 11:27-33 -- especially 11:33, "Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another [for the purpose of forgiving on another beforehand]?"

    skypair
     
  13. amity

    amity
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2006
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ahhh, you must do it understand the reasons, just like Christ said!
     
  14. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oops. You're right! :laugh:

    skypair
     
  15. DUCKY73

    DUCKY73
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2007
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    I see nothing wrong with foot washing. Anyone who has dirty feet should wash them.
     
  16. amity

    amity
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2006
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    0
    Obedience to scripture doesn't count, huh?

    John 13:2And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him; 3Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; 4He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 5After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. 6Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? 7Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. 8Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. 11For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. 12So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? 13Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. 14If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 15For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
     
    #16 amity, Mar 4, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 4, 2007

Share This Page

Loading...