A Historic Premillennial Timeline

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by IfbReformer, Oct 22, 2003.

  1. IfbReformer

    IfbReformer
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    Hi guys,

    I just recently finished an article presenting what I believe to be the timeline for the end times from a Historic Premillennial perspective.

    I know most of my Dispy buddies will get a chuckle out of it, but I hope some of you will actually take a second look at the scriptures again.

    Here is an excerpt:

    "

    The full article can be found at http://www.ifbreformation.org/Prophecy_Historic_timeline.html

    I look forward to your comments.

    IFBReformer
     
  2. Tim too

    Tim too
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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Couldn't get much more biblically accurate.

    Thanks for posting it.

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim
     
  3. Dr. Bob

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    Premill? Yes, but a far cry from Premill and ACCURATE!

    Yours was the "post-trib" model of premillenialism. Among conservatives and evangelicals, that would be a minority view.

    Pre-trib - waiting for the blessed hope and NOT waiting for the tribulation! :D
     
  4. Daniel David

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    IFB, I am curious about this posttrib position of yours.

    Would you explain your position on something?

    When Christ raptures believers at his coming (the end of the tribulation), and executes judgment upon the rest, who are those who enter the millenial kingdom and are able to procreate?
     
  5. Tim too

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    On the contrary, it is the pretribulation premill position that is INACCURATE as it is a hodgepodge of passages hatcheted out of their context.

    Biblically, the majority is usually wrong. :D

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim
     
  6. IfbReformer

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    Daniel,

    Sure I can explain this - this a famous strawman used by Dispensationalists for years.

    I did not say(nor do I see the scriptures saying) Christ executes judgment(meaning destruction) on all unbelievers. Certainly much of the earths population will be destroyed during the 3 1/2 years of tribulation preceding
    the battle of Armaggedon.

    And certainly most of those who come at the battle of Armageddon will be wiped out. Yet we know there will still be survivors as it says in
    Zechariah:

    Zechariah 14:16-17(NIV)
    "16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain."

    So these survivors are the ones who procreate and these are the ones who make up the nations that Satan will deceive after he is loosed from the pit after the millennial reign of Christ.

    I hope that helps you.

    Larry
     
  7. Dr. Bob

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    I personally have visuals of a post-trib rapture that I call the "yo-yo effect". Jesus comes down, believers yanked up and down again. :cool:

    Marriage supper will be a happy meal at the Golden Arches then zip right back. :cool:

    Again, not much of blessed hope for me. But I've been yo-yoed around by some churches in my day . . . :eek:
     
  8. IfbReformer

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    Dr Bob,

    The blessed hope I look for is one that I believe is the most accurate as well as the most glorious - yours is one that seperates the people of God into different groups and pulls some people out in the ninth inning just before the game is over and God shows his power on earth through the Tribulation and then his final victory with Christ and the Armies of Heaven.

    Here is a better picture based on God's Word:

    Daniel 11:32 & 45(NIV)
    "With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him...45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.
    "

    Daniel 12:1-3
    "1 At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered."

    2 Thessalonians 1:6-7(NIV)
    "6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.

    Matthew 24:15 & 21 & 29-31
    "15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand... 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again...29"Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

    What a glorious day that will be when the Anti-Christ thinks he has one and our Lord is revealed from heaven coming on the clouds, with blazing fire with his powerful angels to destroy the Anti-Christ.

    We will see him, oh what splendor and glory that will be while we are standing here and we see our bodies instantly transformed into perfect, imortal and sinless bodies and with these new bodies we fly to meet our Lord and the Armies of heaven in the air, we watch as the Lord and his armies vangish the Anti-Christ and his Armies and the final destruction of the Anti-Christ as he is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

    We celebrate the victory and union of the saints with their Savior as he begins his millnnial reign. Oh what a blessed hope we have!

    I will leave you with this quote from Charles Spurgeon(who was a historic premillennialist as well):

    ""So shall it be when, at the last great day, we walk among men calmly and serenely. They will marvel at us; they will say to us, 'How is it you are so joyous? We are alarmed, our hearts are failing us for fear;' and we shall take up our wedding hymn, our marriage song, 'The Lord is come! The Lord is come! Hallelujah!' The burning earth shall be the torch to light the wedding procession; the quivering of the heavens shall be, as it were, but as the dancing of the feet of angels in those glorious festivities, and the booming and crashing of the elements shall, somehow, only help to swell the outburst of praise unto God the just and terrible, who is our exceeding joy."
    Spurgeon, "The Joyful Anticipation of the Second Advent," 42:603.

    IFBReformer
     
  9. Tim too

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    Dr. Bob,

    Seems like the pretribulation rapture is the one you are thinking of as the yo-yo effect. Christ comes only halfway down for the Church age saints then zips up to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb. Then Jesus comes back again after the tribulation for those who are mysteriously saved apart from the power of the Holy Spirit (as He left the scene with the church). Halfway Down \/ Up /\ Down \/ Just like a yo-yo. :eek:

    The post-tribulation view has Christ coming once for all the saints at which time He sets up His millennial kingdom.

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim
     
  10. Daniel David

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    IFB, I would appreciate your thoughts on Matthew 25, especially verse 41.

    NASB
    "Then He will also say to those on His left, ' Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

    Lets do without the "strawman" blast, especially with the way non-dispies treat dispies.
     
  11. IfbReformer

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    Daniel David,

    Sure Daniel, this is the Sheep and Goats judgement also refered to as the Great White Throne judgement in Revelation 20.

    Clearly occurs at the end of the millennial reign of Christ as seen in Revelation 20 before the eternal state is ushered in in Revelation 21.

    IFBReformer
     
  12. Daniel David

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    Only problem is that the Matt. 25 judgment takes place when Christ comes back.

    The GWT takes place after the millenium.
     
  13. IfbReformer

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    Daniel,

    Lets take a look at this passage:

    You see you are looking at what I would call a 'detail passage' and reinterpreting clear 'timeline passages' with it.

    A 'detail passage' is one that gives us more detail on one prophectic event. Then there are 'timeline passages' that while they don't give as much detail on each of the individual events they do give us the timing and how the events fit into the big picture.

    Matthew 25 and passages like it give us more detail as to the judgement, and in fact Matthew 25 is excellant passage demonstrating that the righteous and wicked will be judged at the same time as we clearly see from a 'timeline passage' like Revelation 20.

    You are taking Revelation 20(which is by the way the last and clearest timeline regarding the millennium and the judgement) and you are reinterpreting it for this passage from Matthew 25.


    You see Revelation 20 gives us a very clear timeline - the dead in Christ are raised at the end of the tribulation(which also marks the begining of the Millennial Reign of Christ) and it is clearly stated that this is the first resurrection. I know that Dispensationalists reject that clear statment and instead say it is the first "type of resurection" but thats not what my Bible reads.

    Then once again in this clear rendering, it says the saints will reign with Christ for 1000 years. Funny you take the 1000 year part literally(as we do) but you reject that it is actually the first resurection as it clearly states.

    It says He will rule with a rod of Iron, now why would he need to rule with a rod of Iron unless there are wicked in his Kingdom? If there are all saints there is no need.

    What enemies does he need to put "under his feet" if everyone who enters the millennial kingdom is a saint?

    "23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."
    1 Corinthians 15:23-25(NIV)

    Then you have that pesky passage from Zechariah 14:

    "16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain. 18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The LORD will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles."
    Zechariah 14:16-19(NIV)

    I know Dispensationalists try and write off Zechariah 14 as talking about Saints who come out of the tribulation. Your problem is that if it were talking about saints(God's people) threats would not be issued against if they did not go up to worship the King. And the very language "survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem" indicates that these are wicked because it says of those who attacked Israel. If it had said "survivors from all the nations who did not participate in the attack on Jerusalem" you might have a case - but as it stands you don't.

    I only see one resurection in the last and final timeline of Revelation 20? Do you see another? Oh you will say God just happen to leave it out -well I guess if you can live with that....

    Talk to you later

    IFBReformer
     
  14. Michael Hobbs

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    A close reading of Revelation 19 shows that the marriage supper (vss 6-9) occurs before the battle of Armageddon (vss 11-21).

    I believe many people wrongly assume that the events depicted in Revelation are in chronological order instead of overlapping (e.g. putting the marriage supper at the end of the tribulation period instead of during the tribulation period).

    If the rapture wasn't until the end of the tribulation, then you have a couple of issues to address:

    1. The anti-christ can't be revealed until the Holy Spirit is taken out (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8). If the Holy Spirit is taken out, and He has sealed the believers until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30), then the day of redemption must occur before the anti-christ is revealed, which would be just prior to or at the beginning of the tribulation period.

    2. You have the church going thru the tribulation. Yet, during the tribulation, you find no mention of the saints in Revelation 4-19 being anywhere other than heaven. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 say we have been saved from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 says we have not been appointed unto wrath.

    3. Christ said no one would know the day or hour that He comes (Matthew 25:13, Mark 13:32), yet if you know when the anti-christ sits on the throne in Jerusalem and declares himself god, you can count forward 3 1/2 years and pinpoint when the battle of Armageddon will occur and know when Christ was returning.

    I believe the coming of Christ is very near and the tribulation not far away. The rapture is the next major event on God's timetable. The age of grace will be complete and Israel will once again be the focus of God's attention.
     
  15. Daniel David

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    Matthew 25:31-32

    31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

    32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

    IFB, your comparisons are all well and good, just off base in their timing. You see, similarity doesn't prove that they are equal. The text PLAINLY says that this judgment will be WHEN THE SON OF MAN COMES...
     
  16. BornagainBeliever

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    What about someone who dies before the trib.? Do they get YO-YO'd around? OR do they just wait in heaven for us who are left to fight our way through?? Do they come back with Christ to fight the final fight?
    I always pray that I will live until the rapture mabye now I'll pray I die before the trib. :rolleyes: I just don't see why God would put us through that.

    BB
     
  17. Tim too

    Tim too
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    What if you are already in the tribulation?

    If you look at the word tribulation in the Bible it is almost always describing what is happening to believers at the hands of the world. Whereas what is going to happen to unbelievers at the hand of God is almost always called wrath. A more Biblical understanding is that we are already in the great tribulation and in is only going to increase in intensity until the final antichrist is destroyed by the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus. This also squares with what is happening to the Church in other countries where persecution is a daily thing.

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Way to symplistic.


    The Five Tribulations
    of the Holy Bible
    Contrasted and compared
    by ed

    The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
    tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
    WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
    affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
    misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
    anguish, torment, adversity,
    travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
    famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
    WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
    to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
    God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
    maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
    WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
    even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
    WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
    few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
    gift of martyrdom

    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
    WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
    WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
    usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
    WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
    (from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

    4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
    WHO: citizens of the world
    WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
    WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

    5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
    WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
    WHAT: the wrath of God
    WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

    Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
    Period found in the O.T.:

    The tribulation in Deut 4:30
    the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
    the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
    the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
    The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
    The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
    The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
    The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
    The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
    See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Tim too

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    Why don't you just take the word tribulation and see what the Bible says about it? :confused:

    Why does everything you write [​IMG] have to be a book? :confused:

    The word tribulation appears 22 times in the KJV. Please show me how many times those appear to be at the hand of God vs. the hand of man.

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim
     

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