A look at Matthew 16 vs dogma

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by 1Tim115, Jun 9, 2010.

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  1. 1Tim115

    1Tim115
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    The best commentary on scripture is scripture.

    Matthew 16:13-23
    13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
    14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
    15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
    16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
    19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
    20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
    21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
    22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
    23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

    Discussion:
    1. Who is the subject of this discussion? It is Jesus.
    2. Who is the subject of the New Testament? It is Jesus.
    3. Do other Gospels provide context for Matthew 16? Yes, Mark 8:27-33 (no mention of rock). Luke 9:18-22 (no mention of rock).
    4. As a result of this scripture does Peter ever refer to himself as the rock or even a bishop (pastor) of any church? No, in fact he acknowledges his sinfulness, Luke 5:8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.
    5. To whom is Jesus speaking? All the disciples present but primarily the 12 apostles.

    Notes:
    1. The obvious subject of Matthew 16:13 is Jesus Christ our Lord. “…Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?” Also, in verse 15, “But whom say ye that I am?”
    2. The word rock is found in the Bible 55 times. All references are direct or indirect references to God and particularly Christ, i.e. Deuteronomy 32:15 “…the Rock of his salvation” and 1 Corinthians 10:4 “…that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”
    3. In Peter’s only reference to “rock” in 1 Peter 2:8 he refers to The Lord Jesus Christ. “And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.” Even here, he refers to the O.T. where Isaiah 8:14 prophesied the future coming of Christ.
    It could be easy to make an errant casual determination of what Matthew 16:13-23 says. When some truth is mixed with an error it can appear to be plausible. Once an error occurs and additional dogma is adopted with it; it becomes difficult to correct. Once accepted and purported as truth, personal pride and reputation can play a strong role in perpetuating an error. Further, error becomes a tradition among those who accept and adhere to it. When power and wealth are added to pride and tradition, the error becomes nearly impossible to correct. When generations are trained to accept an error it may be so strongly entrenched attempts to refute are ignored. There may be good intention for the truth which accompanies the error. The intention can become overwhelming to any attempt at correcting the error.
     
  2. Tom Bryant

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    Good points, but what error are you talking about? I am imagining that it that Peter is the rock on which the church was founded, but want to make certain. By the way, I agree that Peter is not the rock that is being spoken about.
     
  3. thegospelgeek

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    But does anyone think that Peter is the rock that the church was built upon? I don't know anyone.
     
  4. BillySunday1935

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    Whether from New Testament Greek, or from the Aramaic, this is the correct and widely accepted translation:

    Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are YOU, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to YOU [Simon Bar-Jonah], but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to YOU [Simon Bar-Jonah] that YOU are Peter [ROCK], and on this ROCK [Peter] I will build My church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it [the Church]. And I will give YOU [Peter] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever YOU [Peter] bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever YOU [Peter] loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

    In context, Matthew 16:13-20 IS about Jesus, AND it describes how Jesus builds his Church upon Peter, giving him [PETER] full authority on Earth in anticipation of Jesus’ death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven. In other words, Peter will be Jesus’ representative (look at the significance of a King giving the keys to someone in Jewish culture.) Remember this - “feed my sheep” , “tend my flock”?

    Here is the proper and clear order of events:
    1. Jesus blesses Simon Bar-Jonah
    2. Jesus tell Simon Bar-Jonah that God the Father has revealed Christ’s identity to him [Simon]
    3. Jesus tells Simon Bar-Jonah that he is the Rock [Peter] (significant name change)
    4. Jesus [now using Simon’s new name ROCK] tells Peter [Rock] that he [Jesus] would build his Church upon him [Peter – Rock]
    5. Jesus promises [Peter - Rock] that the gates of hell will not prevail against it [the Church]
    6. Jesus gives Peter [Rock] the keys to the kingdom of Heaven. (More cultural significance)
    7. Jesus tells Peter [Rock] that whatever he binds on earth will be bound in Heaven and whatever he looses on Earth will be loosed in heaven. (The authority to forgive sins)

    Sources:
    Joseph H. Thayer, “Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament” (Peabody: Hendrickson 1996), 507;
    D.A. Carson, “Matthew” in Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., “The Expositor’s Bible Commentary” (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1984), vol. 8, 368.

    Peace!
     
  5. Tom Bryant

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    Apparently Billy does. :tear:
     
  6. BobRyan

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    1 Cor 3 "No other Foundation (PETRA) can anyone lay than has been laid - Jesus Christ"

    1Cor 10 "They all drank from the same spiritual ROCK (PETRA) and that Rock is Christ"

    Matt 16 "you are PETROS -- upon this PETRA I will build my church... He turned and said to Peter "get thee behind Me satan" "

    Matt 7 "everyone who hears these Words of MINE and ACTS upon them may be compared to a wise man that built his house upon the PETRA"

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BillySunday1935

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    True - as does most of Christendom who believed this for approximately 2,000 years.

    Peace!
     
    #7 BillySunday1935, Jun 9, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 9, 2010
  8. Thinkingstuff

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    I believe a lot of people miss the first question "who is the son of man"? He's obviously refering to Daniel and the messianic prophesy. So he's asking who is the messiah. I find the answer interesting: Some Say John the baptist (just recently passed) and some say Elijah (he had already come). Most of the answers are people who have already come.

    Then Jesus asked who do you say that I am. Making an indirect correlation between Daniels use of "son of man" and himself. Peter of course answers accurately calling Jesus 1) messiah and 2) the son of the living God. Which both points have very interesting connotations that I wondered if the Jews had ever made a connection between Messiah and the son of God.

    As for Rock there is a debate in what language Jesus was using. Kephas from the Aramaic or Petra from the greek. There is speculation that matthew was originally written in aramaic and his disciples translated into Greek which would make sense showing independent translation from the OT rather that generally used LXX by the other apostles. So it really depends on your view with the languaged used.
     
  9. BillySunday1935

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    These do not preclude Jesus using this as Simon's new name.

    First, the linguistic argument you are using regarding the Greek text’s use of the terms petros and petra is flawed. There had been a distinction between the meanings of these terms in some early Greek poetry, but that distinction was gone by the time of Jesus. In the first century, when Matthew’s Gospel was composed, the two terms were synonyms (cf. D. A. Carson’s treatment of the passage in The Expositor’s Bible Commentary, published by Zondervan).

    Second, you are overlooking the fact that Jesus and Peter did not speak Greek in everyday language, but Aramaic. (Greek was the language of commerce in first century Palestine; Aramaic was the language of everyday life.) Behind the Greek text of Matthew 16:17–19 there was an Aramaic conversation, and in the conversation there would have been no distinction between the terms representing petros and petra. In both cases, the same word—kepha (from which we get "Cephas")—would have been used. Hermeneutically, one should read a translation text in harmony with the language that underlies it since the translation is simply a means to understanding what originally was said. Consequently, Jesus’ statement in Aramaic—"You are kepha and on this kepha I will build my Church"—should be decisive for the interpretation.

    If you do further study on Matthew 16:17–19 you will notice several structural features of the passage that required Peter to be the rock. Basically, Jesus’ speech to Peter consists of three statements. The first of the three statements is a clear blessing on Peter. Jesus says, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona!" The third is also a blessing: "I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven." But if the first and third statements are blessings then the middle statement—"And I tell you, you are Peter"— taken in its immediate context, must be a blessing as well. Jesus thus is not contrasting and belittling Peter as a small, insignificant stone with the second statement. It, like the ones before and after it, is a blessing that builds him up.

    Peter is definitely the Rock!

    Peace!
     
  10. ReformedBaptist

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    Billy, the papacy/Roman Catholic Church is not Christian.
     
  11. thegospelgeek

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    Guess I was wrong. Learn something new everyday.

    I find it obvious that when Jesus said upon "this" rock I will build my church, that he is refering to the truth that Simon peter has just stated. That He(Jesus) is the Christ.
     
    #11 thegospelgeek, Jun 9, 2010
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  12. BillySunday1935

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    Well, that would be YOUR opinion. Why not let God decide such matters - it is, after all His place to do so.

    Peace!
     
  13. Thinkingstuff

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    That's interesting. Roman Catholic Church is not christian since when?
     
  14. ReformedBaptist

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    How do you suppose we do that?
     
  15. ReformedBaptist

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    Since it was a Roman Catholic Church. lol
     
  16. Thinkingstuff

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    I disagree. They are Christian though they differ on certain theological points with Us. I don't see them as being less Christian that the Anglicans, Lutherans, etc..
     
  17. Dr. Walter

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    The Lord uses the second person singular direct address "you" when addressing Peter but changes to the third person singular direct address when addressing the rock "this" rock. The nearest antecedent to the third person singular "this" is "it" in verse 17 which has for its nearest antecedent the confession of Peter in verse 16.

    If Jesus intended that Peter was the rock he would have continued using the second person singular direct address - "You are Peter and You are the rock upon which" The change of person demonstrates Peter is not the rock

    Peter is masculine whereas "rock" is feminine in gender. Despite Rome's denial there was current Jewish literature where the masculine "petros" is used as a diminuative small stone rather than the feminine large source.

    The context is about WHO IS CHRIST not who is Peter. Jesus never asked Peter individually, Peter responded in behalf of all of them as they had all confessed this eariler in the crossing of the sea.

    Last, this is a building context "build". There is a builder named "I will". There is a building to be built "my church." There is a foundation to build "upon this rock". But there is no building materials except in the name of Peter. Remember, Jesus is the one who gave this name to Simon. Notice that in verse 17 Jesus does not call him Peter but "Simon Bar Jona." In giving this name it is in the anarthous construction for characterization. Jesus is saying in the context of building that Peter is characteristic of the type of building materials (born of the Father, Christ professing persons) that Christ builds His churches out of - spiritual born again living "stones" and Peter understood this as in 1 Pet. 2:5 he describes the church as composed of "lively stones" and immediately identifies Christ alone as the "petra" or foundation (1 Pet. 2:8).

    In addition, the "keys of the kingdom" were given to Peter in this REPRESENTATIVE capacity or what characterizes the materials Jesus builds his churches out of because in Matthew 18:17-18 the power of the keys is attributed to the plural "you" comprising the church.

    In addition the grammar of Matthew 16:19 supports the interpretation "has already been bound....loosed" in heaven "shall be bound....loosed" on earth.
     
    #17 Dr. Walter, Jun 9, 2010
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  18. Tom Bryant

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    He did, as a matter of fact... It's called the Bible.

    btw, Peter wasn't even the head of the church in Jerusalem. In Acts 15, it was James who was given the final word in terms of a decision. Peter speaks but as an equal not as any final arbiter.

    I think the RCC is part of Christendom, just not a part of Christianity.
     
  19. BillySunday1935

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    I appologize, but I'm not sure how this response ties in with my statement...

    Let's look at the Early Church Fathers. James was given the See of Jerusalem, but Peter governed the universal Church. This was dealt with early on by St. John Chrysostom who anticipated and refuted such an argument.

    Says Chrysostom: "If anyone should say, 'Why then was it James who received the See of Jerusalem?' I should reply that he [Christ] made Peter the teacher not of that See, but of the world." Ibid. 81.

    In other words, says Chrysostom, after Peter's fall (his denial of Christ), Christ "brought him back to his former honor and entrusted him with the headship [epistasia] of the universal Church." [Ibid., 80.]

    Peace!
     
  20. Thinkingstuff

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    Here is some more food for thought every time when all the disciples are listed, why is Peter always mentioned first?
     
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