A-millennialists believers ?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Rich_UK, Dec 2, 2004.

  1. Rich_UK

    Rich_UK
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    What makes this stance on eschatology the most accurate one in your opinion? I'm wanting to find out more about it but aswell as researching it further, I'd appreciate your views.
     
  2. DeafPosttrib

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    I'm strong amill, posttrib, and idealist.

    I am a truly baptist.

    I used myself was pretrib/premill/literalist/securitist in my early Christian life as baptist.

    Later, I will discuss more details what amill actual believe. Many areas I do agree with amills. Some areas, I do not agree with amills.

    For example, large groups of amills are partial/full preterists, Calvinists, Reformers, Catholics, & Lutherans.

    More half of amills believe in the Perservance of the Saints same as security salvation.

    But, I agree with amills on many areas what they believe according Eschatology doctrine.

    To be honest with you. I did not learning from amillers 4 years ago. Four years ago, I started to dig deeper in the Bible study about millennium. I found so many troubles from the Bible, caused me to be realized there are so many conflicts of premill doctrine with the Bible. That's how I left premil camp, and became pan-mil for a short time, then 3 years ago, I became amill completed.

    I will make next post with verses from the Bible why I believe in amill.

    Actually, I rather to saying it, 'Eternality kingdom' than amillennial. I will discuss more about kingdom with verses later in the next post.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  3. OldRegular

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    Amillennialism

    A number of writers have noted that the term amillennialism does not accurately portray amillennial doctrine but implies that amillennialists do not believe in a millennium or ignore the first six verses of Revelation 20, neither of which is true. However, no one has suggested a more appropriate name that has received wide acceptance.

    Those people who hold the amillennial doctrine believe in a general or universal resurrection [that is a resurrection of all the dead at the ‘second coming’ of Jesus Christ] followed by the general, ‘the Great White Throne’ judgment. Perhaps the most significant passage of Scripture that teaches a general resurrection and judgment is spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ:

    John 5:28,29, KJV
    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Other Scripture which teach a general resurrection and judgment are:

    Daniel 12:1,2, KJV
    1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
    2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

    Acts 24:14,15, KJV
    14. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
    15. And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

    It follows, therefore, that amillennialists do not believe that Jesus Christ reigns from an earthly throne for a period of one thousand years. Rather amillennialists in general believe that the deceased Saints [those who have part in the first resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ] are now reigning with Jesus Christ in heaven. Some amillennialists believe that the ‘millennial’ reign refers to the influence of the Church in the world. This period [the millennium of Revelation 20, a definite but unrevealed period of time] extends from the ascension of Jesus Christ until His return, His Second Coming, in power and glory. [The chaining of Satan in Revelation 20 is a symbolic representation of this limitation on the power of Satan.] Amillennialists in general recognize that the Church on earth has and will always undergo tribulation, as Jesus Christ promised:

    John 16:33, KJV
    33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

    Some amillennialists believe that this tribulation will increase in intensity as the return of Jesus Christ approaches [Matthew 24]. Amillennialist believe that the Church is present during this period. To bring this tribulation to an end Jesus Christ returns with the souls of the deceased Saints. Many who hold the amillennialist view also believe that there will be a large scale conversion of the Jews prior to the return of Jesus Christ.

    The glorious return of our Lord Jesus Christ will be accompanied by the trumpet of God and the shout of the archangel [Matthew 24:31; 1 Corinthians 15:51,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; and Revelation 11:15-18]. At this time the dead in Christ will be resurrected [rise first], the living believers will be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and both groups will meet Jesus Christ in the air [where the resurrected bodies will reunite with their souls] and accompany Him to the earth. [See the comments on Revelation 1:7 in Section 10.2.] There will be a resurrection of those who died without Jesus Christ as Saviour, followed by the Great White Throne judgment [Matthew 25:31-46, Revelation 20:11-15]. Satan, whose power has been limited by the victory of Jesus Christ over death [Hebrews 2:14, 1 John 3:8, Matthew 12:28-29], and his followers will be cast into the lake of fire. The new heaven and new earth will be created wherein dwelleth righteousness [2 Peter 3:10-13; Revelation 21:1]. There are many expositors who believe that rather than a completely new creation the heavens and earth will be restored to the purity with which they were originally created. [See Andrew Hoekema’s The Bible and the Future, Chapter 20.] This new creation and the life of the redeemed with God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are gloriously described in Revelation 21-22.

    Amillennialists in general believe that the Old Testament promises not fulfilled in the Church will be fulfilled in the new heaven and new earth. Hoekema discusses the implications of this belief in The Bible and the Future. It must be noted at this time that reference to the one thousand year period occurs only in Revelation 20. The glorious kingdom promised by God to His people in the Old Testament was to last forever, not one thousand years.
     
  4. Rich_UK

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    DPT and Old regular, thanks for your posts. I find them extremley interesting.
    I myself was always pre trib, pre mil, literalist and became a christian through the charismatic movement. I left that movement and although I haven't entirely changed my beliefs, I've found increasng numbers of different views that are hard to ignore. I know they can't all be right however I am looking forward to learning more about these topics and discovering which was is the most accurate.
     
  5. OldRegular

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    May I recommend The Meaning of the Millennium, Four Views, by Robert G.Clouse and the commentary, Revelation, Four Views, by Steve Gregg.
     
  6. Dr. Bob

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    Amen to that. Used both books when I taught bible college classes on prophecy and end times. They give the pro/con of each view and it truly opens your eyes to the thinking behind the "wrong" views!!
     
  7. gb93433

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    Some are a pan millenialist - whatever pans out.
     
  8. DeafPosttrib

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    Whilst myself was premil for a long time. I started to study Bible on millennium much deeper four years ago. I find troubles from the Bible showed me there are conflicts on premill doctrine.

    I study on Matthew chapter 13 talking about the kingdom, and the harvest. Matt. 13:28-30 tell us, let both tares and wheat growing together till the harvest comes, then all tares shall be gathering and seperate them from wheat, and cast them in the fire. This passage speaks of both unbelievers and believers are growing together over the world. Unbelievers CANNOT be separated from believers TILL the end of the world/age come, then Christ shall send his angels to gathering all unbelievers, and separate them from believers, cast them into everlasting fire. This passage caused me into trouble, it does not saying about 'a thousand years'. I understand this passage telling us, all unbelievers shall be cast away into everlasting right away after Christ comes with angels. Obivously, it tells us, they shall be cast away after the tribulation at the end of the age.

    I read in Matthew 25:31-46. This passage also caused me into trouble. This passage teaches me very clear, when Christ shall come with his angels, angels shall take all unbelievers, separated them from the believers. Then cast them away into everlasting fire right away -verse 41 & 46. I do not find 'a thousand years' anywhere in context of Matt. 25:31-46. It teaches me, all unbelievers shall be cast away into everlasting fire right away after Christ comes with his angels. This is clearly teaching of posttrib coming at the end of the age.

    I find John 6:39,40,44, & 54 caused me into trouble, the mostly. Christ teaches me, that He shall raise all people from the grave on the last day. The context of John chapter 6 does not saying anything about 'a thousand years'.

    Isaiah 65:17-20 reminds me, it talking about new heavens and a new earth many years ago. I do not find anywhere in the context of Isaiah chapter 65 mentioned on 'a thousand years'.

    Bible caused me into trouble, all of thes ebooks never saying that Christ shall set kingdom upon earth for a limited time - a thousand years, also, I find none anywhere in the New Testament books saying that Christ shall set Jerusalem(earthly city) as world's capitol for a thousand years after his coming.

    That's why, It caused me left premil camp, because I rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying.

    What about Revelation chapter 20? I am aware of this chapter is a very hotly debate between premil & postmil/amil. Premills emphasis on Revelation chapter 20 proves us, it will be a literal future 1,000 years after Christ's coming, because of this chapter saying so.

    Why not premills have to explaining many other passages anywhere in 65 books of the Bible about a thousand years beside Revelation chapter 20? I realized, premills doing their own logical and guesswork on their own interpreting many passages on other 65 books of the Bible beside Revelation chapter 20 too much.

    Amills have no problem to teaching on ANY passages throughout 65 books of the Bible on prophecies, because they easily notice there is none mentioned of 'a thousand years' find anywhere in all passages of the 65 books.

    I would like to make you think twice on Revelation chapter 20. Does Revelation chapter chapter 20 saying, Christians shall reign upon 'earth' for a thousand years? Does Revelation chapter 20 saying, Jerusalem(earthly city) shall be world's capitol for a thousand years?

    I learned from some premill teaching on Israel & Church for a thousand years. They saying, Church shall reigning for a thousand years - heavenly, Israel shall reigning for a thousand years - earthly.

    Where did they get the idea comes from?

    Disp/Premil/Pretrib teaching on the book of Revelation is chronology order. They saying, millennium period will come follow the battle of armageddon - Revelation chapter 19 by chronologically order.

    Early in my Christian life. I thought Revelation is chronological order. Few years later, I read a book - 'Prewrath Rapture of the Church' by Marvin Rosenthal. I learned that Rosenthal shows us, Revelation is not strictly chronological order, but it have retelling events.

    How I Know?

    I learned that Matthew chapter 24 do have comparing with Revelation chapter 6. I was amazing find there is parallel comparing with Matthew chapter 24 with Revelation chapter 6. I thanked to Rosenthal Rosenthal. Because he study Bible much deeper and harder. Even, himself was pretrib before. Although I have many disagree things with Rosenthal. Yet, I respect him well. Same with Late Robert Van Kampen.

    That why I digged on Revelation more deeper.

    I find sixth trumpet does have parallel with sixth vial talk about Euphrate River shall be dried up. I realized, book of Revelation showing us there are cycles of John's vision. There are seven cycles in the book of Revelation.

    Cycle One: Revelation 6:12-17 -Cosmic disturbance at sixth seal & harvest of the Church of Revelation chapter 7 - END!!

    Cycle Two: Revelation 11:15-19 - at seventh trumpet as the 'last trumpet' of 1 Cor. 15:51-53 sounded, then the judgement comes upon the world - END!!

    Cycle Three: Revelation 14:14-20 - harvest of the world - END!!

    Cycle Four: Revelation 16:17 - at seventh vial follow after the thief at Christ's coming - before the battle of armageddon -Rev. 16:12-16 - END!!

    Cycle Five: Fall of Babylon -Rev. 18:10,21 -END!!

    Cycle Six: Christ comes to destroy all armies, include all people of the world - Rev. 19:11-21 - END!!

    Cycle Seven: Satan shall be released out of the bottomless pit, and to decived all nations for a short time, then God shall cast fire upon earth, and destroyed it, then judge all people - Rev. 20:7-15 - END!!

    I have been read and study throoughout whole book of Revelation many times for over 16 years, and I am still learning on it, never satisy till I die or CHrist comes. I urge you to read and study Revelation repeat and repeat, take your time, you will understand it better.

    I better stop for now.

    I will continue discuss more on Revelation chapter 20 deeper.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  9. Rich_UK

    Rich_UK
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    Thanks everyone for your input.

    Originally posted by Old Regular:

    Thanks I'll look into these...

    DPT thanks for your post. I will read it over and thanks for your willingness to explain further still your Amillenial view- I find it very interesting. [​IMG]
     
  10. Ed Edwards

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    Interesting, an eschatology
    based on what is NOT said.
    Come on, verses mentioning the 1,000 years
    are limited. So that means we can just
    can the 1,000 stuff? I don't think so.
    Of course, i'm not a-mill either.

    BTW, the majority of a-mills do NOT believee
    like Brother DeafPosttrib, so he is a beacon
    of light in a dark world of hopeless
    a-millilnnialism.
     
  11. OldRegular

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    What does that mean?? :confused:
     
  12. OldRegular

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    What does that mean?? :confused: </font>[/QUOTE]Nothing could be as hopeless as dispensationalism. Jesus Christ failed to establish the Messianic Kingdom and established the Church instead. The Church is destined to failure and Jesus Christ is going to get it out of the way so 144,000 Jews can preach another gospel of some kingdom.
     
  13. Daniel David

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    Oldreg, I don't know of a single dispy who believes Christ failed.

    I am a dispy who believes that Christ came to begin his kingdom and the New Covenant. He did both of those things in his first coming.

    The fact that neither the kingdom nor the New Covenant have reached their fulfillment does not signal failure.

    CHRIST DID NOT COME TO EARTH TO ESTABLISH AN EARTHLY KINGDOM IN HIS FIRST VISIT.

    Thankfully, since God is not a liar, he will invade humanity again and set up ground zero in this town in the middle east. Um, there won't be any suicide bombers there either.

    That is not failure, you fail to understand what dispy teaching is really about.
     
  14. OldRegular

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    I suspect that many who claim to be dispensationalists are dispensational in their eschatology only. Dispensational preachers rarely talk about the Parenthesis Church.

    Dispensationalism denies that the church is included in prophecy. Rather, the claim is made that Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic kingdom for the Jews, that they rejected Him, and that He established the Church instead [Herman Hoyt, a dispensationalist, in The Millennium, Four Viewpoints, by Clouse, pages 84-88]. The Church is often referred to as the ‘mystery parenthesis’ form of the Kingdom; mystery in that there is no prophecy in the Old Testament regarding the Church and parenthesis in that God found it necessary to interrupt His program for the Jews because their leaders rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah and He was unable to establish the Messianic kingdom.
     
  15. Daniel David

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    Old reg, please point out all those verses that speak of the body of Christ, where Jews and Gentiles are one. Thanks.
     
  16. LadyEagle

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    HUH???? That's a knee slapper! [​IMG] Needed some humor on this dreary rainy evening in Dixie! Thanks, Old Regular! ;)
     
  17. Daniel David

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    Ladyeagle, he is talking about Old Testament prophecy. In that case, he is correct. The church is NOWHERE in the Old Testament.
     
  18. Rich_UK

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    Was Joel 2:28 refering to the church age christians or the israel? I always thought it was refering to pentecost onwards, up until the gifts ceased. In which case it would have been referring to the church right? Or is it referring to the end times, as in the tribulation period. Either way, is it referring to the church people?
    Joe 2:28 "And afterward,
    I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
    Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
    your old men will dream dreams,
    your young men will see visions.
     
  19. Daniel David

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    The usage of the Joel passage marked off the beginning and ending of this age. The Holy Spirit would be poured out at the beginning. Then, the cosmic signs would happen at the end.
     
  20. OldRegular

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    Jesus Christ came to die for our sins:

    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    And for the Church:

    Acts 20;28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    Ephesians 5:25-27
    25. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
    26. That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
    27. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

    Since Jesus Christ died for our sins and for His Church it follows that those Old Testament Scripture that prophesy the death of Jesus Christ are a prophecy of the Church, although the Church already existed in its Old testament form [Acts 7:38]:

    Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    In fact anyone whose sins have been covered by the Blood of Jesus Christ is a member of the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ. No where in Scripture that I have found does it say that Jesus Christ died for a Messianic or Millennial Kingdom. In fact I don't recall anywhere in the New testament where it states that He died for Israel but I could be wrong. If you know of any such Scripture I would appreciate you identifying them for me.

    For good measure:

    Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     

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