A Physical Return of Christ in the future

OK. I am clear on the fact that you have no difficulties. You would begin to have difficulties if you realized that your are applying overly-literal fulfillments to spiritual prophecies. Are the mountains going to "melt" also, per the Bible. Is God going to ride on a "chariot in the clouds"? Do the trees "clap their hands"?

You are extremely literal on these imagery verses, but you are quite stretchy on the word "day".

 

Oh, I see, I need to spiritualize these prophesies to properly understand them? So if a prophesy predicts the destruction of Jerusalem it should be taken literally, but if it predicts the saving of Jerusalem it should be spiritualized. Very consistent method of interpretation you have there.

The mountains could melt. The same heat that will cause men's flesh, eyes, and tongue to consume away while they stand on their feet could melt rock too. Zechariah says the mount of Olives will divide in two and provide a valley of escape for the Jews. It says there will be an earthquake and the land turned to a plain from Geba to Rimmon. I believe these are literal.

As far as the Lord riding in a chariot (not mentioned in Zechariah), that could be literal too. The trees clapping their hands cannot be literal, trees do not have hands.

By the way, the trees clapping their hands is found in Isaiah, not Zechariah. Nice try though.

And even if you spiritualize Zechariah, it does not change the fact that the Lord says he is coming to save Israel, not destroy it.

That is the one hurdle you cannot get over.

 

See? Its this kind of cheekiness that is what is irritating about you, Winman. I wasn't "trying" anything at all. I was just acting on the assumption that all of the Bible is germane to our discussion.

Forget it. I'm not interested in these jejune pea-shooter discussions.

 

Confusion of Cental Doctrine

Hank you are write about it being a central doctrine for many people—but it is based on a flawed understanding of scripture. They are reading these verses like the bible is English literature and its not—its Jewish literature translated into English. If you don’t keep in mind the Jewish nuances then the meaning is lost.

While there is a school of Preterist thought that holds that Acts 1: 9 – 11 describes Christ return not in a physical way, but as invisible and in judgment against Jerusalem in 70 AD based on verse 9 when he disappeared into the clouds, I prefer the school of though that says Acts 1:9 - 11 has nothing to say about Christ’s return—that is dealt with in other places—this verse is strictly about his ascension.

Read a more literal translation that isn’t trying to help this verse out and it makes it easier to understand. The ASV for example:
who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

Or the modern HCSV
They said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up into heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come in the same way that you have seen Him going into heaven.

When it says “come in” the same that way you have seen Him going into heaven the “come in” is not implying come back to earth it is saying come into heaven. It is the same event viewed from the other side of the heavenly door. It’s the flip side of the same coin.

Since verse Acts 1:9 HCSB says “a cloud received Him out of their sight.” The apostles can’t actually see him to know where he is going and the two angels (notice two not one as in two witnesses needed) attest as to where he went. The angels verify that he did actually go into heaven which is where the son of God would go.

When Acts is being written a large reason for writing is to convince its audience that Jesus was actually the Messiah. There are a lot of people claiming to be the Messiah during this time period. If Jesus went to heaven the he has to be the real son of God and real Messiah. It helps validate Jesus as the true Messiah.

This verse uses a rhetorical scheme known as an ellipsis for the sake of brevity. Since the phase “into heaven” has been used twice already instead of using it again it omits it and its implied after “come in.” The audience of the day would have understood this and known it says Jesus came into heaven. However, it confuses most modern readers.

Think how confusing it would be for the audience of its day if the verse talked about the Ascension, then for one phrase talked about coming back to earth, then switched back to the ascension. All this switching back and fourth would make it difficult for the audience to follow. The point here is to add validity to Jesus’ being the actual Messiah and son of God and prove he went to heaven when he ascended not somewhere else. The two witnesses verify what the Apostles can’t see for themselves. If the Apostles are going to claim he went somewhere they can’t see they need the witness of someone else to verify that claim.

As far as Zechariah is concerned. If God comes on clouds against nations as in Isaiah 19:1 as when he rode a swift cloud against Egypt and no one saw him actually riding then we need to be consistent in appling like verses to Jesus. God’s riding on a cloud is indicative of his presence being found in the Babylonians conquering Egypt. Jesus didn’t tell anyone to create a physical return out of his appearing on clouds either. Its only when you strip away the established Jewish nuance and make this English literature that you get confused. As far as setting his foot down on the Mt. of Olives if God can send armies against nations (Day of the Lord terminology used there also) in the Old Testament and is presence is in it and didn’t tell us to change the interpretation of it then his foot setting down on the Mt. of Olives is simply having his presence in the Roman army (10th Legion) come to the Mt. of Olives.

Easy to understand if you maintain the Jewish underpinnings of the verse and entirely different meaning if you forget the Jewish precedent established in similar verses.

A quick glance at Zechariah makes it obvious that it is not a literal series of events in our future. Just keep in mind that Old Covenant conventions like the feast of Booths ended with the Old Covenant and there is no return to the Old Covenant. We will stay in the New Covenant and temple, animal sacrifices, Jewish festivals no longer have any standing in the New Covenant.

 

Dear Logos1,

This is old ground and I have little desire to go over it again because it usually ends badly with ad homini
and a rendering of "evil for evil" and "railing for railing".

Certainly not to be applied to your post as it is free from these obvious works of the flesh.

However, I will say this one thing, you (and others) have clearly illustrated what it is about preterism in many of its manifestations that concerns me and that is the free and unbridled use of applying imagery to every verse of prophetic Scripture that is contrary to its position.

Granted, as you say, imagery abounds in the Scripture and other semitic literature of the day (e.g. the non-scriptural writings among the Dead Sea Scrolls).

Granted, many highly educated and knowledgeable spiritually minded Bible teachers are convinced of its veracity.

I understand these things and FWIW and IMO, you have every right to adhere to the premises of preterism with the expectation of being treated decently regardless.

However, as someone has already pointed out: Preterism has no problem with a literal interpretation that the Roman army will come and destroy the Temple, slaughter the Jewish people, etc... but when Scripture (even in the context of the Roman sack) points to something global and/or related to a physical nation of Israel and its redemption then preterism requires symbolism and imagery to a point that seems quite unacceptable to me.

Here are just a few Scripture out of a myriad which illustrates this point:

Luke 13

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.​

Luke 22

16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
...
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

Personally, I believe Jesus meant a literal and earthly kingdom (though not of this world - cosmos) where one day Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets along with the Apostles would do some very physical things such as eating and drinking with the Lord along with sitting on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

However, if you believe by grace through faith in the actual, literal and physical death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ (and it is my presumption that you do) then FWIW, you my brother in Christ and let there be peace and harmony of spirit between us brother despite our differences in "eschatolgy".​

HankD​

 

No, it did not. But Micah was not speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.. If you would read further, you would see that he spoke of Jerusalem and Israel being reestablished.

Mic 3:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

Prophesy is difficult, prophesy can jump from one time period to another and back again, sometimes in a single verse. You must remember this when you read prophesy.

I have showed many verses in Zechariah that shows the Lord will come to save Israel in the last days, just as Micah 3 does above. But in Zechariah 9 we see an example of prophesy jumping in time.

Zech 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

Zechariah 9:9 is speaking of Palm Sunday, the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem as King.

But verse 10 jumps ahead to the end of time when the Lord will save Israel from all the nations that come against it and set up his kingdom. This is not 70 A.D. because the Lord will finally bring everlasting peace, and all the nations of the world will come up once a year to worship the Lord as is shown in Micah above.

So, prophesy can leap from one time period to another. You have to always consider this when reading prophesy.

 

The problem is every time you view the words "Jerusalem" or "Zion" in the scriptures you apply them to the physical city, location, and nation. The NT clearly teaches that this cannot be so. Sometimes there are prophecies which speak of the natural Jerusalem, but as Galatians 4 teaches us, we must understand that the bible uses the natural reality to picture the spiritual reality. Thus, sometimes OT prophecy is speaking of the physical Jerusalem and sometimes of the Jerusalem above which is the mother of us all.

There is an idea that one must either be a literalist or an allegorist. The fact is the bible authors themselves sometimes take texts literally and sometimes allegorically. When Isaiah 65:17-24 speaks of God creating a new Jerusalem, Jerusalem a rejoicing and her people a joy, it must be understood that he is speaking of the spiritual Jerusalem, the eternal reality, and not the temporal and physical city of Jerusalem.

Moses told the Jews, before they entered into the land, that their residence in that land was dependant on their obedience. He clearly and incredibly fortells their ultimate and continued disobedience which lead to their absolute destruction at the hands of the Romans and gives them zero hope for national reconstitution thereafter.

 

Well RAdam and I have found some common ground that the Jewish state that was destroyed in 70 AD will never be reconstituted into a covenant relationship with God. The modern day state of Israel is separate from the Jewish state which enjoyed a covenant relationship with God.

And, while I certainly think we should support the modern state of Israel as a friend and ally we should understand why we do it and not link it to the Jewish state of the bible.

 

Could not have said it better myself!!

 

Jesus did rise in a physical body, but we won't

Don't let someone tell you wrong about the preterist position. We don't have any problem that Jesus did have a physical body at least part of the time he was on earth before the ascension. BIG however here though, he was God and had unique work left to do on earth. What arrogance to put ourselves on the same level as God. We don't have any work left to do here on earth after we die and won't get our physical body back. Remember 1 Corinthians 15:50 Flesh and bone cannot inherit the kingdom of God. We will have a glorified body in heaven, but not a physical one.

 

For those who are interested, I am in the process of doing a series on spiritual Zion in Isaiah. The index page for the series (so far 13 articles) is here:

http://asterisktom.xanga.com/730209743/index-on-isaiah-articles-with-comments/

 

We cannot currently apply them because the history of redeemed Israel is on hold:

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
​

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Jerusalem (and the Temple Site in particular) is still being "trodden down of the Gentiles" so "until" still applies.

When the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled we are told in many many places what will take place... Here are a couple:

Amos 9
13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

Acts 1
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Zechariah 13
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

These kinds of passages including the miraculous events they speak of must be completely overturned by a preterist position.



HankD
​

 

These verses are a continuation of the verses before. Take a look at 11-12:

11 “ On that day I will raise up
The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down,
And repair its damages;
I will raise up its ruins,
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,”
Says the LORD who does this thing.

The same building is going on in both sets of verses. But we know for a fact that the events in 11 and 12 are not future, because the Jerusalem Council, Acts 15, quoting this very passage, saw it as being fulfilled in the missionary activity in Antioch, Cilicia, etc.

The same problem here. Backtrack two verses to 1-2:
1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

The gathering of nations against Jerusalem is exactly what happened to them in 70 AD. And, yes, there were nations involved, as you can easily read from Tacitus or Josephus. Luke 21:20-22

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Note that not only did all this happen in 70 AD but that, according to scripture (v. 22) this fulfills all of the things of the "days of vengeance". (Compare this verse with Isa. 61:2 and 63:4).

 

Are you arguing for two separate "trodden down of the Gentiles"? Because Revelation 11 says it was to last 42 months.

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

As Tom has already pointed out, Amos 9 is quoted by James:​

Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

This passage was quoted in the conext of Gentiles coming to faith. If this has not been fulfilled, I'm not sure Gentiles can be saved yet:​

Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Or just allow the NT writers interpret them for us.:thumbs:​

 

I asked this:

Did this literally happen centuries ago?

Mic 1:3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
Mic 1:4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.

Your reply:

 

Hi Tom,

Yes I am aware of your exposition of these passages in Luke and Acts.
Minus the heavenly and earthly cataclysms and the myriad scriptural promises of the restoration of the Nation of Israel.

And indeed other prophets are quoted such as Joel in Acts 2.
The "Day of the Lord" however was not ushered in as Joel had stated so long ago and Peter repeated.
Neither was the kingdom restored to Israel concerning which the apostles had questioned Jesus in Acts 1.

These promises were contingent upon the national repentance of Israel, which, had a good start but eventually fizzled out. Therefore Paul says

Acts 13

46 ... It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.​

Over and over the gospel and the messiahship of Jesus Christ was rejected, therefore Israel was temporarily blinded and set aside.

This is fulfilment of Christ's words to the Pharisees:​

Matthew 21
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.​

This rejection in the Book of Acts was the early beginnings of the "times of the Gentiles" which actually and officially starts after the sack of Jerusalem and continues to this day until the times of the Gentiles are fulfiled. In the meantime those things prophecied by the prophets in their completion must now wait until the fulness of the Gentiles is consumated.​

Then "the worthy nation" (the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel) will be sealed and go forth during the Tribulation leading up to the Day of the Lord with the bodily return and coming in glory of Jesus Christ.​

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:​

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

Revelation 19

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which werein heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.​

HankD​