A Physical Return of Christ in the future

Hello again grasshopper!

I will be the first to admit that the imagery in the Book of Revelation is often times difficult to interpret, unravel and piece together.

The 42 months in Revelation 11 does not fit the preterist schematic either because in AD70 plus 42 months Jerusalem and specifically the Temple was still trodden down and has been trodden down to this very day by multitudes of Gentiles (presently a moslem mosque sits on the site) which is of great pain to the orthodoxy in Israel.

In addition Revelation 11 is in the midst of the Tribulation so yes, you may have a point there that there is another "trodding down" of the Temple during that time. Actually this may mean that the restored earthly temple in earthly Jerusalem will have to wait for another 42 months of being trodden down from Revelation 11 even though the 144,000 have been sealed. This would seem to mean then that Revelation 11 is at the mid point of the Tribulation.

I fully admit that there are difficulties with any eschatological view.
However, full preterism seems to me (underline "to me") to have the most.
Because to me the promises to Israel made by God Himself will forever be unfulfilled.

However if to you and Brother Tom they are fulfilled in the allegorical sense and God's word is vindicated then FWIW, I am fine with that.


HankD

 

Looks like a good series of articles

asterisktom,

For those who are interested, I am in the process of doing a series on spiritual Zion in Isaiah. The index page for the series (so far 13 articles) is here:

http://asterisktom.xanga.com/7302097...with-comments/

Thanks for posting the link.

I've read the first couple articles and want to encourage others to invest the time to read these articles on spiritual Zion in Isaiah. I plan to read them all as time permits.

"God is not a temple builder ultimately. His deeper aim is to build a people up, to gather them together and grow them as His own unique people. That is why the temple passages in the Bible eventually give way to the Zion or Jerusalem passages, until finally we see in the last book the heavenly Jerusalem, a city without a temple. It has no need for one, because we have Christ and are in Christ."

Well Said asterisktom. It is important that we grasp the concept that God is not focused on building a temple or restoring any of the other conventions of the Old Covenant their place was to prepare the way to the New Covenant and ultimately to Christ and now having brought us into the New Covenant any thing that hinges on a physical Temple/Jerusalem is by definition in our past and there is no returning to it.

I think there are others here who will yet have the light bulb come on all of a sudden they will grasp the Christ centered beauty of full Preterism. Preterism helps us focus on Christ and not on temples and sacrifices and any rebuilding or destruction of a physical Jerusalem/Temple.

Those who are only interested in building your eschatology on Old Covenant conventions can skip the articles, but if you are a seeker of truth where ever that takes you will enjoy the articles.

 

Yes the New Covenant has been ratified with the Blood of the Lamb.

The eschatological issue presently being discussed is not covenants but promises.

Promises to His ancient people, Israel.
Promises made by God Himself.

Even in the eternal state Israel and the Church are symbolized as distinct:

Revelation 21

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.​

Revelation 1

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

HankD

 

Thanks for the comments. God truly is not focused on Temples. This was also Stephen's message to the over-zealous Jews who were set on killing him. They had said that he spoke against "this holy place", the temple, and against Moses. He countered with scripture, showing that they - far from honoring God - were resisting the Holy Spirit.

I say all this not to make the point that all who disagree with us on the temple are likewise resisting the Holy Spirit, but that Stephen's point about the temple still stands: It is no longer about physical temples or physical Jerusalem. Jesus said as much in John 4. He clearly foretold the advance of God's purpose from the physical (temples of stone) to the spiritual (Temple of Christ's body):

19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.

20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”

21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.

24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”


Worshiping in spirit and in truth does away with dependence on any locality. It is still done in a temple, but it is the Temple of Christ's body.

There is no way to get from this worship to the imagined worship of reimposed rites of a sacrificial system that no longer has purpose. That system had been jettisoned at the proper time, just as our rockets jettison their stages when their purpose has been reached.

Following the truth wherever it takes is what it is all about. I'll be honest that at the beginning of my studies I did not feel as positive as I do now about preterism. But I knew that, as I patiently studied these passages that pieces of the puzzle would come in place. And they have. But it takes time.

That is why I am not upset when someone merely disagrees with these things; I had done the very same things.

 

What is the Greek word for "ratify"? Or the Hebrew?
I don't believe there is one. That word - with the meaning attached to it today (see Webster, especially) is foreign to God's Word, at least as it relates to God's purpose.

Those things that Christ's death made possible were already beginning to be put into effect. The beginning of the Kingdom of God was not - is not - interrupted by a hiatus of many centuries.

Even by calling these things "eschatological" you assume what you still need to prove. The "last days" of the Jews (the eschaton) are the Gospel years of the church.

 

Somehow I totally missed this post. My first response just now was to take the time to answer in more detail.

But then I noticed the "sect" and dishonesty insinuation and then decided to forgo further comment.

At any rate, the answer is clearly seen by reading my posts.

Also: Not to take this thread too far from the OP, I started a new thread on the Kingdom in the Old testament and how it points to Preterism:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=67069

 

Then I am sorry and apologize. I do take things the wrong way some times.

 

Grasshopper asks:

Yes, for the Gentile aspect and it could have been for Israel had they accepted the apostolic offer of national repentance in Acts 2ff.

However they balked:

Acts 2

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.​

Acts 13

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.​

Romans 11

23 And they (Israel) also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel,until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.​

After the Times of the Gentiles are completed then they will enter into their part of the New Covenant, until then they must come individually to Christ in the same manner as anyone else, by grace through faith.

Why 5 when one will do? Besides, they are not my promises but God's. If He can't keep 1 He can't keep 5 either.

Joel 3

16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.​

All who are redeemed of all the ages.

I quote Isaiah the prophet:

Isaiah 13

9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.​

HankD​

 

Hi Tom, it's not a word used in the KJV.

RSV Galatians 3:15 To give a human example, brethren: no one annuls even a man's will, or adds to it, once it has been ratified.​

RSV Galatians 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came four hundred and thirty years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.​

Ratify: Strongs 2964 kuroo

What I am proposing is that though the New Covenant has been ratified, there are parts of the Old Covenant which God Himself made unconditionally for the benefit of national Israel and therefore has bound Himself to those components, the future fulfilment of which does not contradict or annul the New.

FWIW, I don't have a problem with those who want allegorize these promises or transfer those promises to the church. Personally, I don't hold to that position.

HankD

 

Jesus was living on the earth when he made known the gospel of God. I see in no place in scripture where salvation hinges on the second coming. Salvation is secure in Jesus and nothing else.

Now of course I believe in Jesus' return.

1 Thess 4:16-18, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

Imagine explaining all that to the children Jesus had in his arms. To do that would be just like the Pharisees did by burdening the people with their nonsense when they did not even know the scriptures or the power of God.

 

So the New Covenant of Jer. 31 has not been fulfilled? It was made for the House of Israel and the House of Judah, not the Gentiles. Again, has jer 31 been fulfilled?

Their balking came as no suprise to Jesus or the Disciples, but it hardly thwarted the plan of God:

Luk 10:3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
Luk 10:4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
Luk 10:5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
Luk 10:6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
Luk 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
Luk 10:8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
Luk 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Luk 10:10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
Luk 10:11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

Where does scripture teach a conditional covenant or a conditional Kingdom? Was Daniel wrong when he predicted the coming Kindom during the Roman Empire?

Did the early church(all Jewish) have their sins taken away?

Lets get the context of Is. 13. Who was this prophecy to:

Isa 13:1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

Who would God use to bring this judgment:

Isa 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.


What war instruments are to be used:


Isa 13:15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.

Isa 13:18Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces;

(Do you abandon literalism here?)

How is it described:

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.


Isa 13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.


539bc Babylon overthrown by Medes & Persians(Cyrus the Great), handwriting on the wall.



http://www.fincher.org/History/Bible.shtml

 

"Israel has not fully entered the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 yet. They could have had they accepted the apostolic offer of national repentance in Acts 2ff. They will eventually."

The plan of God was for the Old Covenant to ultimately pass away. Its purpose was to prepare the way for the New Covenant.

Now that we are in the New Covenant there is no going back to the Old. Christ only needed to die on the cross one time to cover all our sins past, present, and future.

Old Covenant conventions like covenant Jerusalem, the Temple, etc have left the scene for good. There is no going back for anyone—Israel, Jerusalem, the Jews included.

Admittance into the Kingdom in the New Covenant is only done through personal acceptance of Christ. There is no reinstituting the system of a High Priest in the New Covenant who could go into the Holy of Holies and make atonement for the Jewish people as a nation.

Christ provides all those functions now. The whole temple system of priests and sacrifices was a foreshadowing of the work of Christ. What would a High Priest do make animal sacrifices again for the whole nation? Hebrews 10 covers this territory. Verse 4 zeroes in on it. “For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.”

 

No argument.

The restoration of Israel as a Nation does not have to do with the Vicarious Atonement of mankind via the shed blood of Jesus Christ but a fulfilling of the prophetic promises of God.

Zecariah 2

8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.
9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.
10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.​

The rebuilt temple will be of no more soteriological significance than a local church building.

If there are animal sacrifices (which personally I doubt) they will be memorials. They never had any saving value anyway.

Perhaps this promise to the apostles will happen there:

Luke 22

15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
...
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

In any event, I find less problems eschatolgically with the restoration of Israel than allegorizing the three year siege/sack of Jerusalem as the Second Coming Of Christ.​

BTW, it is the 9th of AV (Tisha b'av) the day when Jews mourn the Roman destruction of the Temple.​

HankD​

 

How can anyone equivocate on this????

Of course there will be a physical return. Scripture is clear.

Not to mention...when one begins to waffle on the physical return, then waffling on the nature of the resurrection becomes one step easier.

 

A non-physical body? How absurd. God made man composed of body and soul, both material and immaterial. In the words of the Baptist Faith and Message "Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer."

What do you think we do, just float around as spirits for all eternity? :laugh: While there is an intermediate state between our death and the general resurrection at Jesus' one and only Second Coming in which we will not have our bodies, that state for all eternity would be unnatural, go against God and the way He created us, and would, frankly, suck. Why would God give you a body in the first place if He wasn't going to resurrect it?

While I'm sure the intermediate state will be great, I quite like being an embodied being. If I didn't have a body, I wouldn't be able to go outside and look at the beautiful blue sky with pretty white clouds, look at the pretty little birds and cute little squirrels in my back yard, go to choir and sing songs about God, play my bass guitar, do deeds of love and mercy in the name of Christ, hug my Hispanic grandmother, listen to liberal talk radio, read my NASB bible, or fill out enumerator questionnaires.

That passage in I Corinthians is obviously symbolically referring to our natural state of sin and need to be born of the Spirit, but you twist it to support your heresy.