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A play on logic?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Jodo Kast, Oct 15, 2004.

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  1. Jodo Kast

    Jodo Kast New Member

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    I was reading through another board, and I found this paragraph:


    "If there is no Creator, and therefore no moment of creation, then everything is the result of evolution. IF there was no beginning or first cause, then the universe must have always exisisted. That means the universe has been evolving for an infinite period of time --- and, by now, everything should already be perfect. There would have been plenty of time for evolution to have finished and evil to have been vanquished. But there still is evil and suffering and imperfection --- and that proves the athiest wrong about the universe"


    This was some attempt to disprove atheism. I find it quite logical. (and thats what atheist love to rely on) And no atheist had a worthy rebuttle on the board. So I am asking you..

    What is your opinion of it?
    What flaws do you see in this staement?
    Is it something I should use in the future to counter atheist?
     
    #1 Jodo Kast, Oct 15, 2004
  2. Pete

    Pete New Member

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    I like it on first read [​IMG]

    Been thinking about it a minute though and think they'ld throw in something about the laws of thermodynamics and say we are evolving as fast as we can to get clever enough to counter-act those laws ;)
     
    #2 Pete, Oct 15, 2004
  3. Plain ol' Ralph

    Plain ol' Ralph New Member

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    Looks ok, but then there is God.
     
    #3 Plain ol' Ralph, Oct 15, 2004
  4. natters

    natters New Member

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    I am not an evolutionist. However, that statement doesn't seem logical to me. It relies on "an infinite period of time", which isn't consistent with secular theories that time and space are interwoven, that time is relative, and there was no such thing as "time" before the big bang. Thus it's sort of a strawman.

    Also, even if there already has been an infinite period of time, that doesn't necessarily mean that evolution ever finishes, or even that evil and suffering and imperfection would ever be eliminated by infinite evolution.

    The approach I take with atheistic evolutionists is to point out that without God, there is no such thing as "evil" and "good" in the first place - it's all a subjective illusion and everything (emotion, pain, morality, life, death, etc.) is ultimately meaningless and simply just complex physics and chemistry.
     
    #4 natters, Oct 15, 2004
  5. MTA

    MTA New Member

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    The whole statement really does not follow sound logic at all. Time is finite; it must begin at some point and end at some point. Only eternity is infinite. By what authority can anyone assume that sufficient time has elapsed for perfection to overcome evil and for evolution to have reached its conclusion? How much time is it supposed to take to reach perfection? You have to know that before you can assume "enough" time has elapsed.

    An atheist can choose to believe that God does not exist, but an atheist cannot prove that God does not exist. That would require that they be omniscient, which they will readily admit they are not. You do not have to prove that God exists, that He alone created the universe and all that is in it, or that He is represented in the Trinity as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; you simply must believe. The proof of non-existence rests with the atheist and the only acceptable proof they can offer requires omniscience. They fail.
     
    #5 MTA, Oct 15, 2004
  6. Glory Bound

    Glory Bound New Member

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    Who said that things always get better with evolution? The idea of things evolving into a perfect state isn't logical to me.

    The statement sounds nice, and has truth in it. But I think a smart evolutionist (oxymoron???) would pick it apart for some of the reasons listed.
     
    #6 Glory Bound, Oct 15, 2004
  7. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Even a full-blooded atheistic evolutionist would agree:
    Evolution has no purpose!
    It has no direction.
    It has no endpoint.
    It is a misnomer to say that things get better with evolution.

    Evolution deals with change; not with good or evil.

    Rob
     
    #7 Deacon, Oct 15, 2004
  8. Jodo Kast

    Jodo Kast New Member

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    Well, good points all. I am a creationist. and It can be picked apart. since I am not proficient in argueing for evolution, and against God; I appreciate your Ideas on this.

    -I cant understand an "Evolutionist" to think evolution has no purpose.

    -"IF there was no beginning or first cause, then the universe must have always exisisted. That means the universe has been evolving for an infinite period of time" -- this is a conditional statement, we don't know that it is true, the point is (IF) you can get them to agree to this in their mind, then you have some leverage.

    -"Evolution" knows no good or evil. In its definition, I cant argue with this.


    To sum it all up. I do not intend for this thread to lead to another debate about "evolution". I guess I am leaning more twoards, how do you argue for God? If this is not good logic(there are alot of assumtions in this, but can you really help that when you talk about evolution?) then what is good logic. I would be picked apart in a debate like this, and I want to strenghten my self.

    also, on the board I found this at, it seemed none of the atheist and or evolutionist could come up with a decent reply to it. thats the only reason I considerd it and brought it to you.


    thanks for your comments
    -Will


    Once again I dont want to turn this into an evolution thread!!!
     
    #8 Jodo Kast, Oct 15, 2004
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