A Post Trib Surprise

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by ballfan, May 16, 2004.

  1. ballfan

    ballfan
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    This is now shown to be a post trib passage.

    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    There is something in the verse to show timing.

    perileipo

    Strongs 4035

    1) to leave over

    2) to remain over, to survive

    This word means to leave over or remain over with survival as a key element.

    Its used in greek writings to show survivors of events.

    In 1 Thessalonians 4 it shows that those members of the church who survived the tribulation will be caught up to meet Jesus as he descends.

    If not the tribulation what did they survive?
     
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    Life.
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    This topic is hereby dedicated to the
    6,300 Million Christians who have NOT
    survived life and who are NOT alive
    and do NOT perileipo (remain).

    Even so, Lord Jesus, come quickly [​IMG]
     
  4. ballfan

    ballfan
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    They survive "Life"? Doesn't quite fit survive. [​IMG]
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    It does quite fit "survive". The raptured generation will
    not die the first death. The raptured generation
    will not die the second death.
    The raptured generation will NEVER DIE.

    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive (1)and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: (2)and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    The first "and" connects two descriptions of the same set.
    The second "and" is a polysendeton (used in Greek prior to
    verses to show parts of the outline, i.e. here that is what
    happens afterwards)

    [​IMG]
     
  6. superdave

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    The real post trib surprise will be when Jesus comes to get them before the Tribulation, whether they want to leave or not! :D
     
  7. ballfan

    ballfan
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    Hi SuperDave, [​IMG]

    You or nobody else made much attempt to refute the facts I placed in the original post.

    Thats probably because the facts are true.

    The passage is actually a post trib proof.
     
  8. Daniel David

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    ballfan, perhaps you could let me borrow that wrench of yours. You did enough wrenching of this verse to last you for awhile.

    The context answers the question. First, the Lord will descend and raise up those in him. Then, those who remain will be caught up. They are alive and do not die prior to the Lord's descent.

    Stop using a wrench on verses.
    Stop trying to prove posttrib.
    Stop turning verses on their heads.
    Stop making me post just to correct you.
     
  9. superdave

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    I did not feel the need to refute anything, since there was no proof. The plain sense of the verse pretty much stands on its own, no reason to stretch the meaning, unless of course you have a pre-conceived theory and are merely searching for proof texts

    The dead in Christ will rise first, than those of us who survive, or remain alive at that time will be caught up together with them.

    Its pretty simple really. I really didn't see any post-trib proof in your post, in either Greek or English. If Christ returns now, we would be those who remain alive, who have survived until this date. Pretty simple if you ask me. I did not see any specific references to the tribulation in the verse, or in the context surrounding it. Since we have pretty much established in this thread that the word for to remain over or survive could just as easily refer to those who continue to be alive at the time of the rapture, where is the proof that this verse has anything to do with those who survive the tribulation.

    The real rub for that theory regarding the verse is this. After the tribulation when Christ returns to the Earth, he will return TO the Earth, not just the atmosphere. He will return as the ruling king. In this verse, you see him meeting the raptured saints in the clouds, the differences are striking, and would seem to be to be much more clearly a proof text for the rapture of the Church itself, rather than a proof of post-trib timing for the rapture.
     
  10. ballfan

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    The plain sense of the verse is they survived something. The underlying theme of perileipo is survival. Even the word remain goes in that direction.

    REMAIN--To be left after the removal, loss, passage, or destruction of others:

    Your intrepretation of remain is undercut by another verse describing the rapture.

    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    That all happens at the same time in the twinkling of an eye. Your intrepretation would be that we survived the resurrection. Doesn't exactly make sense.

    I almost laughed when I read that earth vs. Atmosphere angle. Then I realized you were serious. Of course Jesus descends to the earth after the tribulation. He descends through the atmosphere. Thats what shown in 1st Thessalonians 4. We meet him in the air and accompany him as he returns. Nothing in the verse suggests Jesus is at the end of a yo-yo as pre trib suggests.
     
  11. ballfan

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    Actually the context of the passage deals with the fate of the dead in Christ. See 1st Thessalonians 4:13. In examining this passage we come across a word with an underlying theme of survive.

    Not really interested in examining the verse to see if it disagrees with what you think are you?
     
  12. Pete Richert

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    Someone is at the end of a yo-yo, either Jesus in the pretrib or Christians in the post-trib scheme.

    While not in full alledgence to the pre-trib position, I must agree with my pre-trib brothers on this one. The passage is clearly speaking of those who are already dead versus those who are still alive. Paul is not refering to those who are dead who didn't survive the trib but those who were dead already as he was writing it. This passage makes no mention or reference to the tribulation and is not a proof-text for either position.
     
  13. Glory Bound

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    Wait a minute... let me get this straight:

    Some of you guys are saying that this refers to some distant generation 1,000's of years in the future?

    Someone made a crack about "wrenching" the verse to prove the post-trib view. It seems to me that the pre-tribbers are also guilty of "wrenching".

    Explain why the verse has the word "we" in it... "then we who..."? Is this another example of Paul not choosing the proper words? Why in the world would he use a word to include himself (especially the first "we") if he was referring to an event that wouldn't happen for thousands of years after he died?

    I suppose this is more of a preterist slant rather than pre-trib, but that word sticks out like a sore thumb.
     
  14. Dave Taylor

    Dave Taylor
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    1. Jesus is the Word
    I John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)"

    John 1:1-2, 14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    2. Jesus, the Word, told the 1st century listeners (and us as well) when His Coming to gather us would be.

    Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:27b "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

    3. Paul was led by the teachings of Jesus, the Word, to give further details about that coming.

    I Thessalonians 4:15-17 "For this we say unto you BY THE WORD OF THE LORD, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    Paul clearly told us that the teaching that he was about to give us concerning 'the coming of the Lord' as he calls it in verse 4:15, and our gathering together to Him in verse 4:17, was 'BY THE WORD OF THE LORD'.

    The Lord Jesus, the Word; never taught or discussed a pretrib rapture, pretrib gathering, pretrib resurrection, or pretrib coming.

    'The Word of the Lord' clearly taught all these things would occur 'after the tribulation'.

    In regards to when Jesus would come, He told us believe Him, and to reject those who would come and say His coming would be in a different place and in a different way than He Himself told us it would be.

    Either Paul was writing in harmony with Jesus' own account of Christ's Coming, which would be after the tribulation; or he was teaching a different coming and a different way opposed to Jesus' teaching and should be rejected.

    I say, accept Paul as teaching in complete and total harmony with Jesus in regards to His Coming after the tribulation.

    Reject the modern viewpoint that creates an extra coming that Jesus never mentioned; and that if accepted; would put Paul in conflict with the teachings of Jesus about "His Coming" for "His elect".
     
  15. ballfan

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    Someone is at the end of a yo-yo, either Jesus in the pretrib or Christians in the post-trib scheme.

    While not in full alledgence to the pre-trib position, I must agree with my pre-trib brothers on this one. The passage is clearly speaking of those who are already dead versus those who are still alive. Paul is not refering to those who are dead who didn't survive the trib but those who were dead already as he was writing it. This passage makes no mention or reference to the tribulation and is not a proof-text for either position.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Actually no one is on a yo-yo. The practice of meeting someone as they come is common.

    Paul is speaking of all dead believers. Its fairly clear that there will be believers who die during the trib.

    What was the point of Paul using the word remain? The verse could have read:

    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    That would be closer to the general meaning most seem to want.

    The survival angle seems to have been needed.

    There is no mention of the tribulation in the verse as you say but then there is no mention of the tribulation in Matthew 24:31 either. You have to look in other verses like the rest of Matthew 24 and in the case of Thessalonians 1st Thess. 5 and the letter of 2nd Thessalonians.
     
  16. Daniel David

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    ballfan, please put the wrench down. This isn't a leaky pipe.

    The context answers your little problem. If that is a proof for posttrib, I will happily remain pretrib.

    Say, I have a stopped up sink. Perhaps you could use that wrench for something good. Let me know.
     
  17. Daniel David

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    Pete, funny thing about the posttrib position is that John 14:1-3 is a wrecking ball.

    See, in that text, Christ promises to take believers back to heaven. It is just another oversight of posttribbers.

    Interesting that Paul puts 1 Thess 4 prior to the wrath to come mentioned in 1 Thess 5.
     
  18. Trotter

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    It is really easy to pick and choose to prove any pet doctrine. But the real test comes when it must stand against the whole of the word of God.

    By taking one verse, and defining the various parts as you go, you have attempted to make it say what it doesn't.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  19. Jacob Webber

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    (Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.)


    Christ here says after the Tribulation with the sound of a Trumpet He will gather His elect. So how do we (not being sarcatic just honestly want to know) say that the Rapture will happen before the Trib when Christ said it will happen after the Trib. I think some get the Tribulation mixed up with the Wrath of God these are two seperate events Christians will go thru the Trib but will be raptured before the Wrath of God is poured out on the Earth
     
  20. Daniel David

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    Similarity doesn't necessarily equal sameness. When the whole N.T. is considered, only the pretrib position is valid.
     

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