A Post Trib Surprise

ballfan, I see you have put the wrench down. Well, at least for now.

The Lord certainly described the tribulation in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. What you fail to grasp is that the rapture is no where mentioned.

Take what the Lord said in John 14:1-3 and compare it with Matthew 24 and Mark 13. You have to note that the Lord is returning to heaven in John 14, but to the earth in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

Go on, have at it. If that text can confuse George Ladd (the chief posttrib proponent), it might just spin you around. Go on, have at it.

 

(Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.)

gather together His elect is the Rapture. The Lord in Matt 24 does not set foot on the Earth thos is clarified in Revalation at the 7th Trump

(Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.)

He is still sitting on the cloud Jesus does not set foot on the Earth until the Wrath of God is over

 

Notice, Apostle Paul wrote of 1 Thess 4:15-17 is much familiar same with Matt 24:30-31.

'coming' -Matt 24:330
'Coming' -1 Thess 4:15

'cloud' -Matt 24:30
'cloud' - 1 Thess 4:17

'heaven' - Matt 24:30
'heaven'-1 Thess 4:16

'angels'-Matt 24:31
'archangel'-1 Thess 4:16(clear in 2 Thess 1:7)

'sound' -Matt 24:31
'shout' -1 Thess 4:16

'trumpet' -Matt 24:31
'trump' - 1 Thess 4:16

'together' -Matt 24:31
'together' - 1 Thess 4:17

'elect' -Matt 24:31
'in Christ' - 1 Thess 4:16

'wind' -Matt 24:31
'air' -1 Thess 4:17

The comparing of Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thess 4:15-17 both are same.

The context of 1 Thess 4:13-18 talk about Christians who were concerning about their love ones who died in Christ, what will happen to them. Paul told them, do not worry about them, they will see their love one again when Christ shall come again. It shall be a great reunion day.

When shall be our gathering together occurs? Matt 24:29 tells us, immediately AFTER the tribulation.

Ed, no way that you can prove Matt 24:31 speak of our gathering together will be BEFORE tribulation, because Christ does not saying, 'before tribulation' in there.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

That is a new one. I wonder why the other posttribbers don't see it that way. Oh, because it doesn't make sense. I see you have moved on to the sledgehammer method with verses.

Note that Christ told the disciples that he is going to prepare a place them. He describes this as his Father's house. This is clearly a reference to heaven.

Jacob, if you continue reading the Olivet discourse, you will see that Christ does come down to the earth. Note also that his reign is ON THE EARTH.

Dpt, we probably both drive cars. Are they the same car because they have similarities?

 

DD,

I have no problem with John 14:1-3. Christ promises us, He is prepared a place for us - New Jerusalem. When He shall come again to receive, and we shall dwell in New Jerusalem where Christ dewlls forever at the second coming. Also, New Jerusalem shall be descend out the heaven and land on the new earth follow His coming - 2 Peter 3:10-13.

1 Thess 4:15-17 does not saying Christ shall have to return back to heaven AFTER he descend out of heaven to gathering us together.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

(Jacob, if you continue reading the Olivet discourse, you will see that Christ does come down to the earth. Note also that his reign is ON THE EARTH.)

Daniel David
As I podted before Christ does touch the Ground after the Wrath of God is poured out on the Earth When He starts His 1000yr Reign on Earth. But Christ does not touch the ground at the time of the Rapture after the Tribulation.

 

Wow, you guys are all over the place.

Dpt, the 1 Thess. 4 text doesn't tell us where he will take us. It only tells us that we will be with the Lord. Obviously we will have to consider other texts.

Jacob, I agree with your post. I am not sure what you are talking about.

 

Pretrib is built upon the Lord's statements and accurate exegesis of the relevant Pauline texts.

Your opinion that pretrib is opinion is laughable.

Clearly premillenialism is truth. Of that we apparently agree.

Your spoof, errrrrgggggg, proof of posttrib in 1 Thes 4 shot your cred to Pluto.

Funny thing about Revelation 3:10, is that Christ promised to keep the church FROM THE TIME of the test, not just the test. Hmmmm.

Hey, I am only pretrib because Christ was.

 

Amen, Brother Daniel David -- Preach it!

- - -

 

(Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.)

Are you sure this is not reffering to the Wrath of God

 

The hour of testing that will come upon the whole world? This is a time that the church is kept from.

 

I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations
are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
many for one week; But in the middle
of the week He shall bring an end
to sacrifice and offering. And on
the wing of abominations shall be
one who makes desolate, Even until
the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
to the "prince that shall come".
Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
are divided in the middle by the abomination
of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall
not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so cometh as
a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say,
Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon
a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
and they that be drunken are drunken
in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day,
be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for an helmet,
the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether
we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

 

(The hour of testing that will come upon the whole world? This is a time that the church is kept from. )

Than it most pretain to the Wrath of God and not the Tribulation. Remember Noah will building the Ark people most likely made fun of Him and may have ruffed Him up a couple times over building an Ark. Now Noah was not protect from the insults and picking from those around during that time. But when the Wrath of God came in the maner of the Flood Noah was saved by being placed on the Ark with His family and all the other animals including the Dino's. Christians will be spared the Wrath of God this is clear but Jesus clearly teaches we will go thru the Tribulatiion as

(Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.)

Christ clearly says after the Tribulation so is Christ conflicting Hiself or does Rev 3:10 mean the Wrath of God

 

Today, I went to my friend's office to check up on my computer, to see how it is progress so far. It progresses pretty good so far. I brought 2004 Norton Internet Security, and it downloading into my computer to removed all files, virus, ads(pop-ups attacks), hijack, spasm, virus, etc.. It is almost done. Tomorrow my computer should be completed. So, I will have plenty time to make more posts in this forum.


Pretrib uses Rev. 3:10 is the 'evidence' or 'proof' of pretrib doctrine. Because of "keep you from the hour of temptation" speak of delivery us from the seven year of tribulation period by rapture. But, they misinterpreting what Christ was actually talking about.

Rev. 3:10 talks about the promise to us, IF we keep His commandments, He will protect us while facing the temptations.

Rev. 3:10 say nothing about the seven years of God's wrath.

Rev. 3:10 sames as and James 1:12; and Rev. 2:10 talk about the promise to us, IF we endure with the trials, persecutions, temptations, not to give on them till our death, will receive the reward.

Also, John 17:15 sames as Rev. 3:10. John 17:15 tells us, while Christ prayed to His Father during Lord's supper. He asked His Father not to take Christians out of the world(sound like rapture huh?) but to keep them from the evil. He talks about asked God to protect Christians while face trials, temptations, persecutions.

1 Corinthians 10:13 tells us, God does not allow us to face greater temptations, because He knows our weakness area. But, it tells us, we are able to carry it and flee from fall into sin.

1 Corinthians 10:13 is a perfect example of Joseph in Genesis 39:7-13. When he faced master's wife tempted him. She asked him for sex. He refused. But, the next day, she kept on asked him the same question, he refused. She does not give up on him. She keeps on asking him again and again day to day(verse 10). One day, she asked him for sex, at the same time, she held his garment. He was immediate flee away from her. He did the right thing to avoid fall into sin.

Same as what 1 Cor. 10:13 talks about.

I leave Matthew Henry Commentary at home. I am posting this at the library. I can't remember the exactly sentence what Henry said on Rev. 3:10. But I did remembered well what he said on the last part of the sentence on Rev. 3:10. He said, we keep His commandment, while we are facing in the TIMES of PERSECUTIONS.

'hour' of Rev. 3:10 does not saying it is 'seven year of tribulation period.

'Hour' means time, era, period. Matt. 26:45 is a good example of 'hour'. Christ told them, that His TIME is arrived to be betrayed into the hands of sinners. Does that mean, He died an hour later at around 4 a.m. during very dark in the night? No, he tells us, He knew His TIME is arrived, that He is facing the betrayal and the cross. He died about 12 or 13 hours later after he was arrested for the judgement.

We do not have to wait for the coming 'hour of temptation'.

Church of Philadelphia during John's time in year around 95 A.D., already faced their temptations. Early Christians already faced their temptations. Today, every Christians are face temptations.

Rev. 3:10 promises us, IF we keep His commandment, He would protect us from the temptations, OR.... if we do not keep his commandment, He will not protect us while face temptations, we might face more problems.

Rev. 3:10 does not saying anything about gathering together, resurrection, Christ's descend, Lord's coming, or God's wrath. Rev. 3:10 talks about His promise to us, if we keep His commandment, He would protect us while face temptations.

Rev. 3:10 do nothing with the 'evidence' or 'proof' of pretrib doctrine. More than 200 years ago, Christians understood Rev. 3:10 talk about the promise to us, that the Lord will protect us in the times of temptations.

No one interpreting on Rev. 3:10 speaks of pretrib till late 19th Century. That why pretrib is building on men's own ideas of their method to intepreting the scriptures, but not what the scriptures actually saying.

We have to be careful when we read and study, we can't jump the conquence fast to determine it speaks of pretrib.

I am very strict on read and study the Bible very carefully. I rather not to my own logical interpreting any scripture. I must let scripture intpreting scripture, what themselve speak about.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!