A Post-Tribulation Hammerlock

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Gavin, Jul 28, 2002.

  1. Gavin

    Gavin
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    Dear Saints,

    We learn in Gal.3:29 that "if ye be in Christ then ye are Abraham's Seed and heirs according to the promise". That being the case the indwelling Christ within our hearts is bringing forth a new man inside of us. And that man is of the family of faith, the family of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
    So as members of the family of Jacob the Jacob experiences, Jacob's ladder, Jacob's tricky ways, and yes, Jacob's wrestlings with "self" in a wider sense become our experiences as well.

    Here then is an exercise and an adventure. It begins at a place of wrestling and of trial. It is a place on the spiritual map where we may not wish to go. Yet it is one of those places of the heart where the western church is soon to arrive.

    It is not for the double-minded. Nor is it for those who would seek to dodge a Christianity of full blood covenant commitment. Click below to begin the adventure.

    http://endtimepilgrim.org/hammerlock.htm

    Grace and shalom to all who love His appearing,

    Gavin Finley M.D.
     
  2. Optional

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    Thanks for mis-stating my pre-trib position so eloquently.
    Was that the strawman pre-trib guy the angel wrestled with?
     
  3. LadyEagle

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    Agreed. So pre-trib must be the correct interpretation of the Scriptures since so many are trying so desperately to prove it isn't going to happen. :eek:

    So much was left out..... :cool:

    Why would Jacob be flushing with Edomite anger? Edom is Esau....

    Angels have protected me. None have ever had me in a scissors or head lock. None have ever beat me up. It may be eloquently written, but it is not truth and it is not rightly divided. Just opinion. I'll stick to my Bible and leading of the Holy Spirit.

    Still listening for that sweet trumpet sound,
    and soon appearing.... [​IMG] :D

    Thank you Jesus for the Blessed Hope. [​IMG]

    [ July 28, 2002, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: EagleLives911 aka SheEagle Soars ]
     
  4. postrib

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    What is the blessed hope?

    "In hope of eternal life"
    "That blessed hope"
    "The hope of eternal life"
    (Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7)

    _________________________________________________

    "When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8)

    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  5. Pastor Larry

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    Why would you include this statement in your "conversation" and then fail at it? Why doesn't your "conversation" even remotely resemble anything found in Scripture? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  6. Gavin

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    Dear Saints,

    Thanks everybody for your responses. The Posttrib Hammerlock is something to get us to reconsider what we have been told by church tradition. It will get people out of their "Left Behind" novels and send them digging into their Bibles. This is good.

    For example, the issue of the resurrection-rapture is laid out clearly in 1Thes.4:15-17. After reading those three verses we know for a certainty that there can be no rapture before the resurrection of the saints. The resurrection of the saints can only occur once and it must be accompanied by the rapture. So. Is that resurrection of the saints going to come before the great tribulation? Or is it after the tribulation? That is the $64,000 question.

    The answer is no mystery. It is not difficult. The scriptures as laid out in the "hammerlock" article tell us quite clearly. And it is not confusing. It only becomes confusing when religious humanists seek to force the holy scriptures to say something that the Author, the Holy Spirit does not say. This is something for us to think about. And something for us to take to heart. Because if there is no pre-trib rapture we had best be taking our faith seriously and preparing ourselves spiritually for witness. Are we saved? Have we commited ourselves to witness unto the death like Egyptian Christians do? And do we have the extra jar of oil, the fullness of the Holy Spirit for our lamps as we go out into the night?

    Grace and peace to all who love His appearing,

    Gavin
    http://endtimepilgrim.org/hammerlock.htm
     
  7. Gavin

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    SHE EAGLE SOARS&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
    Why would Jacob be flushing with Edomite anger? Edom is Esau....

    GAVIN&gt;&gt;&gt;
    Jacob's wrestlings began when he was in his mother Rebekah's womb. He was wrestling with his brother Esau. He was sorting out his separate identity from his brother Esau even way back then. When he and his mother conspired in the flesh against Esau and tricked him out of his blessing there were hairy goatskin Edomite coverings placed on the hands of Jacob. They are still there today. They are expressed in the violent and bloody acts that come from the hairy hands of the Judeo-Christian people. Cruel things, deadly things, like the sword of the crusaders now expressed in guns and bombs and weapons of mass destruction. The wildman Esau was promised the rich places of the earth to be his dwellingplace. He was also promised eventual endtime dominion over against his brother the nurturing Judeo-Christian people. See Gen. 27:39-40. The wild spirit of Esau is rising up even amongst Christians and causing them to forget their spiritual birthright which comes from their faith in Christ, the firstborn. See http://endtimepilgrim.org/redesau.htm

    Our angry red faced preachers are even now preaching a "last crusade" of Edomite wrath against Islam. We shall have that "last crusade". And soon. Our wrestlings with our inner Esau are not over. And we still have not removed our wild Edomite coverings from off our hands. Christians are fierce and wrathful just like Esau. And we cherish our guns. In our incomplete love of God we fear. And in our fear we do not hesitate to take down others that threaten us. No cross for us! And no turning of the other cheek!

    So we are still mixed up in Edom. Our wrestlings will not end until we, the endtime elect of God, emerge completely clear from Esau as the new man in Christ Jesus. In that day we shall be as Nathaniel, resting at peace under our fig tree of sweetness and good fruit in the Spirit. Our identity in that day will have gone beyond Esau and beyond Jacob and on into Israel.-Eph.2:12-13

    Charis and shalom,

    Gavin
    http://endtimepilgrim.org/hammerlock.htm
     
  8. LadyEagle

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    ...so, does this mean you are a liberal? :rolleyes:
     
  9. Optional

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    For a look at the Truth, you sure sensationalize.
    I suppose Jesus was being an Esau when he ran the money-grubbers from the Temple. And was fearful because He took up a whip and took down those that threatened Him. He didn't turn the other cheek and couldn't have been looking toward the cross.
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    Where is it said that this can only occur "once." Does not Revelation twenty clearly delineate two resurrections? Dan 12 delineates one. 1 Thess 4 has two important words you skipped right over -- in Christ. In other words, you have not fully dealt with the context of these verses much less the rest of Scripture. I think your "hammerlock" is ingenuous but has no basis in Scripture ... and you talk about the sensationalism of "Left Behind."

    Religious humanists?? That is a bit over the top don't you think? We have serious exegetical reasons why we believe what we do. We find that Scriptures are better harmonized with our position. We find your position leaves way too many unanswered questions. That does not make us humanists. We simply disagree on this issue.

    And our tribulation position has no effect on how serious we take the gospel and the responsibility to preach and witness. We can be committed to dying for our faith without sharing your view. And we can have the Holy Spirit's power without sharing your view. Those things sound pious but don't play well since they are not based in legitimate reading of the position.

    We, like you, love his appearing and look forward to it. Perhaps a different approach, lighter on the rhetoric, would better serve the discussion.
     
  11. Gavin

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    SHE EAGLE SOARS&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
    ...so, does this mean you are a liberal?

    GAVIN&gt;&gt;&gt;
    No. I seek to call saints back to the Beatitudes. And back to the sort of radical blood covenant Christianity practiced by the early church. And practised by our Baptist forebearers the anabaptists in the 1500's and 1600's. See the video "The Radicals" at http://visionvideo.com And I seek to honor and lift up the sort of Christianity practised by faithful Christians today, yes even Baptists, in countries like China, and Indonesia and Egypt. They are being martyred at a rate of 500 per day. And where they lay down their lives the church springs up from their blood.

    Is this too radical?

    The persecuted church overseas do not have the a government or the NRA to back them. (See the Voice of the Martyrs website). Yet they double their numbers every 6-7 years. All this while we in the rich comfortable Laodicean church lose our teenagers to drugs, sex and rock and roll.

    Does this sound like a liberal talking?

    She Eagle it would appear that you are a Puritan.
    I am a Pilgrim.
    I respect you.

    Can you at least respect me?

    Blessings,

    Gavin
    http://endtimepilgrim.org
     
  12. Gavin

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    OPTIONAL&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
    For a look at the Truth, you sure sensationalize.

    GAVIN&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
    The truth is often sensational. It is only the watered down truth that is boring.

    OPTIONAL&gt;&gt;&gt;
    I suppose Jesus was being an Esau when he ran the money-grubbers from the Temple. And was fearful because He took up a whip and took down those that threatened Him. He didn't turn the other cheek and couldn't have been looking toward the cross.

    GAVIN&gt;&gt;&gt;
    I think you know your Jesus better than that, my friend. Jesus was zealous for his house and sought to help them remember the covenant. He never took up the sword. When Peter did and struck off the ear of the servant of the High priest you know what Jesus's response was. He said, "Put up again thy sword unto his place:
    for all who take the sword shall perish with the sword." -Mat.26:52

    Charis and shalom,
    Gavin
    http://endtimepilgrim.org
     
  13. Gavin

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    Dear Pastor Larry,

    You have fallen into the classic pre-trib dilemna my friend. How many resurrections are there at the end of this age? We know from Rev. 20:12-15 that there is one resurrection at the end of the 1000 years Millennium of Messiah. That one must be the second resurrection. And from what we read we, the saints of this age will not be resurrected for that one. Not if we are true saints that is. Rev. 20:4-6 on the other hand shows us a snapshot of an earlier resurrection which John called the "first resurrection".

    When is that glorious resurrection day?

    Is it to be a Pre-trib resurrection day?

    Or will it be a post-trib resurrection day?

    You must choose. Or play the usual "taffy" game of stretching the resurrection out 2,000 years and slipping the glorious resurrection day under the guise of a "theological category". That is a shifty piece of work.

    Let us face the scriptural facts. Our dear sainted aunts will be resurrected on a certain auspicious date in the future.

    When?!

    Again I ask for a straight answer.

    Will it be a PRE-TRIB resurrection of "those who are Christ's at His coming"? -1Cor.15:23

    Or a POST-TRIB resurrection of "those who are Christ's at His coming"?-1Cor.15:23

    How will you answer?

    And do you have the scriptural proof to back up your assertion?

    Blessings
    Gavin
    http://endtimepilgrim.org/hammerlock.htm
     
  14. LadyEagle

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    I have no idea what this means? :confused: It went Zoom! :cool:

    BTW, anyone who has read my posts around here knows I am a BIG supporter of VOM!

    http://www.vom.org

    http://www.persecution.org

    I don't understand the connection you are trying to make. That went zoom, too! :eek:

    [ July 30, 2002, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: EagleLives911 aka SheEagle Soars ]
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    Gavin, this is not a dilemma in anyway. These questions have long been answered in multiple places by multiple people. Like it or not, there is strong exegesis on our side. There was a resurrection at the death of Christ (1), there was the resurrection of Christ (2), there is a resurrection at the beginning of the millenium (3), there is a resurrection at the end of the millennium (4). So there are at least four. Your contention of 2 resurrection doesn't hold water. However, it has been shown that a pretrib resurrection is the teaching of Paul even though your understanding fo the text is different. I am not going to recreate all the exegesis here. If you are truly interested, study it. If you are not truly interesetd, what I would say won't matter anyway.

    There is a pretrib and a posttrib resurrection. There is scriptural and theological proof. Read Walvoord, Thomas, Ryrie, et al to see it defended exegetically.
     
  16. Optional

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    See, that's the problem with grabbing one scripture. In Luke, He arms his disciples. So now where do you go?
    Pastor Larry is right, also. We have great exegesis on our side yet you belittle us as if we are grasping. So not true.
     
  17. postrib

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    Note that no verse promises us a resurrection before the tribulation.

    I believe the resurrection and changing of all Christians into their immortal bodies will occur at a single point in time, at the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), at the 2nd coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:23), and that this is why it says "the first resurrection" will also include all of us Christians who will die in the tribulation (Revelation 20:4-5).
     
  18. Gavin

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    PASTOR LARRY&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
    There is a pretrib and a posttrib resurrection. There is scriptural and theological proof. Read Walvoord, Thomas, Ryrie, et al to see it defended exegetically.

    GAVIN&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
    You quote Professor Walvoord, (whom I have met personally in 1975), Thomas, Ryrie etc. These are men and quite fine men too. But we as Baptists are bound to the principle of "sol scriptura", "scripture alone". This is a principle for which many fine saints died in the 1500's and 1600's. These men you mention uphold scriptural truth yes, and I respect and honor them for that. But like many religious leaders down through these past 1700 years since Nicea, they may also be under pressure from the crowds to uphold an admixture of popular religious tradition. They may also be under pressure from the powers that be to uphold a politically approved religious cultural lore as well. They may be doing the very best they can to deliver to us the scriptural truth under the cultural and political circumstances. They might even secretly be wishing that the people read the scriptures for themselves and make the needed corrections to arrive at the endtime truth. Even Bob Jones University allows the professors to have posttrib views as long as they are private about it.

    Here is another matter for consideration. We are in a spiritual war, an information war. Perhaps the mob in the streets do not deserve to have this endtime information. Did not Jesus speak in parables so the mob did not hear? Perhaps like the navy we sail out into the endtime "under sealed orders". Perhaps only trusted saints deserve to know. This is why we need to stick with "sol scriptura", the "scriptures alone" for truth.

    Pastor Larry, what I am asking for is direct scriptural proof of your assertion of two endtime resurrections straddling the great tribulation. I am simply asking of you and/or your pretrib champions to come up with the scripture to show two resurrections of the righteous dead at the end of this evil age. If there are Bible passages outlining a resurrection of the righteous before the Great Trib and then another resurrection of the righteous dead after the Great Trib then you or Professors Walvoord and Ryrie must surely have found them. Do they exist? Because the Bible only seems to speak of the resurrection at the "last day". -John 6:39, 6:40, 6:44, 6:54

    This is not just an academic issue. The true saints who read this board need to know. If the pre-trib rapture does not have a resurrection to go with it as stipulated in 2Thes.4:15-17 then it cannot happen at the beginning of the 70th week as we have been told. If the pre-trib resurrection-rapture is not in scripture then we shall definitely need to know about it. If pre-trib rapturism is found out to be folk lore then we shall all need to make further and deeper spiritual preparations. We shall need to prepare ourselves even as a bride prepares her heart to bear witness to the coming of her Bridegroom. We shall need to trim our lamps in preparation for the coming night. And we shall need to find the supply of oil for our vessels, the fullness of the Holy Spirit.

    If we do not, then when the Dan.9:27 global megadeal is confirmed many shall then realise that the clock has now begun ticking into the 70th week. If no rapture is forthcoming it will not be a pretty sight for our pre-trib brothers and sisters. Don't get me wrong. It will be bad enough for ALL of us, until we cry out to God for His promised covering. But many pre-tribbers quite understandably may feel betrayed saying, "Why was I not told?!". "Why was I not warned?!" And many may rise up in Edomite wrath and anger against God to fall away from the faith.-2Thes.2:3 This would be an awful thing.

    Jesus warned us that the endtime events would catch many unprepared. He meant to give us warning. He commanded us to watch. We must awaken to our true calling. Jesus exhorted the Laodicean church to be zealous in Rev.3:19 Was He speaking to us? This is our burden.

    Blessings,
    Gavin
    http://endtimepilgrim.org/hammerlock.htm
     
  19. Gavin

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    Dear SHE EAGLE SOARS,

    The Pilgrim/Puritan relationship is an interesting one. The pilgrimage began with our patriarch Abraham who set out from Ur towards a City he had not seen. The Pilgrim's journey of discovery in God continued on in Israel's history, then into church history with the Pilgrim church in the wilderness. The Pilgrims emerged from out of the medieval age with the Swiss-German Anabaptists who would swear no oaths of allegiance to governments or to church armies. The 1600's saw the coming of the of the Anglo-American Pilgrims and Puritans. Many left the dreadful scene of the English civil War to come to the New World. The Puritans sought to purify the church, the people of God, the culture around them and their government. They were seeking a "manifest destiny" in the New World. They still do that today with "moral majority", Christian Coalition, Eagle forum, etc. An array of American Puritans impeached President Clinton for moral failure a few years back. Such a thing would never happen in Europe, (and France in particular).

    The Pilgrims, on the other hand, were (and are) sojourners, looking for another City, not made with hands. Missionary minded, their moneys go not to purify the state or church or culture but rather to obey the Great Commission and take the Gospel out beyond our comfortable present encampment and out to the ends of the earth. Both the Pilgrim and Puritan ideals are God breathed and God-given burdens. The Pilgrim/Puritan issue is destined to become extremely important in the endtime drama. The subject deserves its own thread. Perhaps we can return to it soon.

    Blessings,
    Gavin
    http://endtimepilgrim.org
     
  20. Pastor Larry

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    And I am telling you that this information is readily available. You don't have the kind of evidence against it that you are asking of me. You must put passages together theologically to support your position as we must for ours. I agree we are in a information war of a spiritual nature. But you have made all kinds of assertions about us and our beliefs that do not represent what we actually believe. IMO, you have ignored Scripture and exegesis to defend your position. The men I have cited have defended it ably. I am not going to try to reproduce that here. If you are truly interested, get their stuff (and multitudes of others) and work through it.

    No one's salvation is in jeopardy here. I do think there is some truth at stake and that is why I believe what I do. I have found the other positions, such as yours, to be unable to account for what Scripture says. I have found their arguments to lack the muster. If someone disagrees with me, that is fine.
     

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