A Proper Concept of the Atonement

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Jun 8, 2006.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    The way in which one views the atonement is paramount to discovering truth. With that in mind, I am going to repost part of a post I sent to DHK on the thread entitled “Are Ananias and Sapphira in Heaven?” I hope this post will serve as a catalyst for some interesting discussion on this most important issue.

    Of a truth, Christ bore our sins, IN THE SENSE OF SATISFYING THE PENALTY OF THE LAW, but What He did not do in any literal sense is to make or pay a ‘literal payment’ of eternal death for even ‘one’ ‘specific’ sin. Absolutely He suffered only once, all the more evidence that whatever he accomplished was not the literal payment of the penalty you agreed with me, that served as the common truth which allowed for this boat ride together, that was said to be the penalty for sin, i.e., eternal separation from God. Christ NEVER suffered that literal payment once DHK. If that happened, He would still be suffering throughout millions of eternities. (The reason why that sounds absurd, is because such would be absurd to consider)

    To follow your dance around the word “eternity,” trying to render the meaning of the word consistent with the meaning of “even in eternity,’ is beyond any semblance of proper or fair interpretation. That is simply a poor attempt to dodge the consequents of your own admission as to the penalty for sin and what it consists of.

    Who said that the sufferings of Christ were “mere” anything as you falsely concluded was consistent with my beliefs? Christ suffered more than any man had ever suffered or will suffer at the hands of evil men. I simply pointed out that the penalty for sin, which was none other than eternal separation from God, was NOT LITERALLY paid, nor logically could it have been. The sufferings of Christ, as heinous and broad in scope as they were a SATISFACTION MADE, not a literal payment to, THE DEMANDS OF THE LAW. That is not to ‘mere’ anything, but rather it speaks to what was in actuality ‘paid for,’ in relationship to the necessitated logic of Scripture’s revelation and truth. If this was a literal payment transaction, Christ would have had to pay an eternal death for every one that ever sinned. It could not have been accomplished once for all, but rather would have continued though out eternity. You cannot escape the literal logical end of the ‘literal payment theory’s’ argument you are espousing. A satisfaction being made to the demands of the penalty of the law, and the setting aside of that penalty being accomplished in relationship to an individuals actual sins by the fulfilling of certain conditions, are NOT notions synonymous with the idea of the literal payment theory you are setting forth.

    The principle target of the atonement was not any ‘single sin’ or sins in particular, nor was it the corporate sins of the elect alone, nor was it the literal payment of the sins of the entire world, (which again would amount to multiple ETERNAL separations for God, a preposterously absurd notion, leading to the necessitated conclusion of universalism if one is logical consistent). The focus and target of the atonement was to accomplish a ‘satisfaction of the debt the law demanded as ‘the’ penalty for sin.’ The penalty of God’s law was being satisfied via a SUBSTITUTIONAL sacrifice, directed at the penalty of sin as demanded by the law, not a literal payment for any sin or sins directly. A bridge had been built by this substitution sacrifice that paved the way, or made possible, the forgiveness of sins of all men for all ages. If a literal payment had been made for each individual sin, all sins would have been remitted and again universalism upheld. If you try and tell me that it was just for the sins of the elect, I will tell you that that would been nothing more or less than the last nail in the coffin of God being a respecter of persons, and the nail that would establish once and for all the false notion of the predestination of the damned, having never had the possibility of their sins being forgiven.

    The purpose of the atonement was to make a way for the forgiveness of sins, not to literally pay for any ‘specifically.’ The purpose of the atonement was to take the literal demands of the ‘penalty for sin’ out of the way, nailing ‘THE PENALTY’ of sin to the cross once for all by a ‘satisfaction of the penalty of sin’ seen by God as sufficient to uphold the sanctity of the law and it’s demands, making possible a show of His mercy and grace that without which could not have been wisely shown. This substitutional atonement made possible the setting aside the penalty for sins, and completed the groundwork of satisfying the penalty of the law, by the mediatory work of salvation accomplished by Christ’s suffering and atonement made on the cross This selfless, merciful, loving , and gracious act on the part of God and Christ and made ‘possible’ the forgiveness of the sins of all men, upon certain conditions being met, by individuals willing to comply with the conditions set forth by God in Scripture and mandated that ‘without which’ NO penalty for sin would be set aside for any individual or on behalf of any individual sin.

    The conditions of salvation in order to accomplish in our lives individually, that which Christ bought with the substitutional willing sacrifice of His own precious blood, that satisfied God that the sanctity of the law and it’s penalty, had been upheld and substitutionally made and accepted by Him as the debt of that penalty being paid in full, were always and will remain the same until the end of time; repentance, faith and continued obedience until the end.

    If we are to take advantage of this substitutional offer for the forgiveness of sins, we must comply with God’s commanded conditions. The ‘penalty’ for an ‘individuals sin’ has been set aside for the offender, ‘if and when’ he fulfills the conditions God has established. ‘THE PENALTY’ that would normally been applied to the individual for his sins has been satisfied completely, set aside, and accepted as such by God Himself, as the individual meets God’s conditions. The grounds have been laid, and the bridge built to establish the possibility of the salvation of all men. All that remains is for the sinner to hear of the good news, repent for all sins that are past, receive of the pardon made possible and the substitution made for the penalty of sins, and by the grace, strength, and help God has promise to afford us, remain faithful until the end.

    Such I believe is a proper concept of the atonement and the ends to which it addressed, accomplished, and made possible. I believe I have correctly set forth a Scriptural map, even though presented as a mere faltering and finite human attempt to elucidate spiritual realities, by which a wayfaring man though a fool, may follow and not error therein.

    Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
     
  2. DeafPosttrib

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    Heavenly Pilgrim,

    Amen. Well saying. :saint:

    I notice securists saying that, Jesus Christ already paid all our sins at once through His blood by Cross 2,000 years. So, we don't have to be worry about our present and future commit sins, because we are already automatically already paid at once for saved.

    I understand your point. Calvary is the point that Christ fulfilled the laws. And Calvary is the shadow of the Old Testament things like as the example of the objections of tabernacle to show the types are talk about Jesus Christ as prophecy.

    I suggest every Christians ought to read the book of Hebrews in the New Testament. It talks lot about Calvary, blood, sacrifices, and priests. During Old Testament period, all high priests had to take animal sacrifices to forgive people's sins again and again. But animals(earthly) cannot forgive people's sins. Only Jesus Christ can forgive our sins through his blood.

    "It is finished" is often misunderstanding among Christians & religions today.

    Securists believe "It is finished" show that our sins all are already paid at once include our present and future sins. No matter how many sins we will commit in the future. He already paid all our sins at once.

    Christ's point of "it is finished" talks about the prophecies already fulfilled concerning about Christ and Calvary. Also, another reason of "it is finished", is, it means, no more daily sacrifices again forever and ever. Now, Jesus Christ is our high priest. And we are His priests. Our responsible is to ask Christ to forgive our sins 24 hours daily. Or if we do not ask Christ for forgive our sins, then He would NOT forgive our currently sins according to 1 John 1:9.

    Of course, Christ paid all our past, present, future of sins at once. No limit how many sins we commited in our life, Christ's blood already cover over all zillions, zillions of people's sins at once.

    BUT, our responsible and conditional, that we are as priests, we are responsible to ASK Christ to forgive our sins 24 hours daily, or if we do not ask Christ for forgive of our sins, then He WOULD NOT forgive our currently sins!

    Later this week, I will discuss more about Calvary and atonenant and salvation issue too.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  3. Heavenly Pilgrim

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  4. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Hi DeafPosttrib,
    Thank you for your kind remarks.

    DPT: Christ's point of "it is finished" talks about the prophecies already fulfilled concerning about Christ and Calvary. Also, another reason of "it is finished", is, it means, no more daily sacrifices again forever and ever. Now, Jesus Christ is our high priest. And we are His priests. Our responsible is to ask Christ to forgive our sins 24 hours daily. Or if we do not ask Christ for forgive our sins, then He would NOT forgive our currently sins according to 1 John 1:9.

    HP: As I pointed out, the penalty for our sins is that which was directly addressed on the cross, NOT the literal payment of actual sins as you rightfully concur with. If we desire to receive the hope of eternal life, we must fulfill the conditions, which initially are repentance and faith. As we do, God applies the blood of His sacrificial substitute, Jesus Christ the righteous, on all sins that are past, removing the penalty of them specifically forever, and casting them as far from us as the east is from the west. Forgiveness is never granted ‘before’ the transgression is ever committed and any conditions on the account of those sins enacted, as some would have us believe. That is simply opposed to every vestige of truth found in Scripture, and is in direct opposition to every known concept of justice concerning a pardon whatsoever. Forgiveness deals with sins that are past, and only then as we fulfill the conditions God has mandated for us to fulfill before he applies the blood to cover the penalty of our sins, satisfying the demands of the law, and casting the remembrance from His understanding, never to be remember concerning us again. The sacrifice for the atonement and removal of our ‘sins that are past’ has been made on the cross, and the bridge built to satisfy the demands of the law and its penalty on behalf of any future acts of sin as well. The blood of that sacrifice is applied to our ‘individual and actual sins that are past.’ as we, in obedience to His commands, fulfill His conditions; initially being repentance and faith.

    Note, the blood that flowed down from the cross fell not directly on us or our sins, but rather the mercy seat of God, satisfying the demands and penalty of the law.
     
    #4 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jun 8, 2006
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  5. BobRyan

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    In Romans 3 we find that "God is just AND the justIFIER of those that diligently seek Him".

    God "is just" because the just demands of His Law are "fully satisified" in the substitutionary atoning sacrifice of Christ.

    The "reason" the "grocery store model" of "payment" does not work as a viable INSERT into the Hebrew (God given) concept of "Atonement" (Lev 16) is that the sanctuary "is not a grocery store".

    In the Grocery story once an item is paid for it is yours - to do with as you please. It no longer "belongs" to the store owner for the owner is paid.

    But "God does not get PAID by having wicked men torture HIM" -- get it friends! That is not "GOD getting PAID!" that is God PAYING the price demanded by HIS LAW. HE is the authority behind HIS LAw and HE is the value behind HIS sacrifice. It is NOT a grocery store model at all!!

    1 Joh 2 (NIV) says "HE is the ATONING SACRIFICE for OUR sins and not for OUR SIN only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".

    In Lev 16 we find that the "Atoning Sacrifice" provides for the debt that is owed - perfect satisfaction. BUT in that model BOTH the sacrifice AND the work of the High Priest - the UNIQUE work of the High Priest are applied in the PROCESS of "Atonement".

    We SEE the Work of Christ as SACRIFICE fully completed at the cross - but then we see the work of Christ as "High Priest" STARTING after the Cross Heb 7-10. In that work as High Priest "The individual cases" of the saints are dealt with - as EACH person chooses either for salvation or against it.

    "BEHOLD I stand at the door AND KNOCK if anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in and dine with Him" Rev 3.

    So it remains for the sinner to be "Convicted" {John 16} of sin and righteousness and judgment - to be "DRAWN" to God as God "DRAWS ALL MANKIND" to Himself John 12:32, and then to OPEN the DOOR (Rev 3) as Christ stands "on the outside" knocking.

    In Christ,

    Bob

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. BobRyan

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    I would argue that Rev 14:10 shows the complete and full debt of the lost sinner is "PAID" in "the torment of fire and brimstone" and is paid "IN the presence of the Lamb AND of HIS Holy ones".

    We will be there to see every minute of it.

    In Matt 10 Christ tells us that just as the wicked today can destroy the body but not the soul - SO in fiery hell - God will destroy BOTH body and soul. Just as surely as sinful men can "destroy the body" in this life.
     
  7. Eric B

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    So now I think I'm getting the idea behind the soteriology of some here, with this distinction between "payment of the penalty of the Law" and "payment for sins". Basically, what that sounds like is that Christ wiped the slate clean that one time, and I guess those who were alive then got the clean slate, but afterward, we're all in the same boat as they were before Christ. Christ's death really means nothing to us then, except as a way to not have to sacrifice animals, but just ask forgiveness of every sin instead. No wonder salvation is all about works, then, to some of you.

    To me, the two things you discussed; paying the penalty, and paying for all sin go together. Pulling them apart like that can only be for a doctrinal agenda. Anyway, the argumet relies heavily on the premise that Christ would have to suffer Hell for eternity to pay for every sin, but you forget that one of the biggest necessities of His deity was the ability to pay for all the sins. That's why He had to be both God and Man. Man sinned, so man had to pay for man's sin, and only God would be worth enough to be able to pay the penalty. that's why denials of Christ's deity are almost always found in groups that advocate works righteousness, and thus change the concept of what Christ did on the Cross, so the New Covenant could be made basically a rehash of the Old Covenant.
     
  8. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Eric:So now I think I'm getting the idea behind the soteriology of some here


    HP: Sorry Eric, in all fairness you haven’t understood what I have stated or implied in the least. I am not the best communicator on the block for sure. You might try the link that I posted concerning the book, “The Atonement” by Albert Barnes. Possibly he will enlighten you in a far better way than I could.
     
  9. billwald

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    "Christ suffered more than any man had ever suffered or will suffer at the hands of evil men."

    Suffering can be quantified? What is the unit of suffering?

    Sufferings were probably symbolic.
     
  10. billwald

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    DPT: Christ's point of "it is finished" talks about the prophecies already fulfilled concerning about Christ and Calvary.

    You are reading theology into the text.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Eric I would agree with HP that you are not getting the point in your effort to reject it you are not allowing youself to grasp it first.

    Those who cling to a grocery store model for "payment" seek to grab the goods and run out of the store.

    You deserve credit in pointing out that as God the Son Christ had the capacity to suffer the payment the debt owed for every sin of every human. "HE is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR SINS and NOT for our sins only but for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2 --

    In this statement we see why it is that this the heavenly sanctuary model of "Atonement" is not in fact a big "grocery store". Mankind is called to "a new Birth" a New Creation -- not simply to claiming a discount coupon!

    The Good News of the Gospel IS BOTH the New birth AND freedom from the penalty of sin.

    Those who seek a means to "a cheap gospel" that defines "Faith without works" as being "more heaven" have imagined a grocery store where there is instead the Sanctuary of God.

    God shows that in the ONE Gospel - the Matt 18 principle of "Forgiveness revoked" applies to those that choose not to continue in that gospel relationship.

    God shows that in the ONE Gospel - the 2Tim 2 principle of "Denied by Christ" applies to those who do not continue in that Gospel.

    God show that in in the ONE Gospel - the Rom 11 principle of "Cast out of the vine of Christ" applies to those that choose not to continue in that Gospel relationship.

    In no case does the Gospel allow for the "YES but I already have my groceries so now it does not matter what the Bible says".

    AS for God not being "able to pay the price" -- HP may want to rethink what the price is stated to be.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Hi Bill,
    I am not certain I understand all of what you are driving at. I do see suffering as quantified in a sense, and in another sense not. Anything that is finite is quantifiable. The physical body of Christ suffered a specific amount of suffering, but the impact of that suffering upon the human race will continue for eternity. Make sense?

    As far as the ‘unit of suffering’ I see nothing that demands a ‘unit’ be established to understand that the idea is quantified in a sense. Were the ‘words’ of Christ in this world “quantifiable?” I would say yes, in a sense. May I ask you if in fact you do not agree? If so, what is the ‘unit’ by what unit can they be measured? Is there not a finite sense by which they can be measured, as well as an infinite and spiritual sense by which they cannot be?




    HP: In defense of DPT, I would say that DPT did not limit the words “It is finished” to just the items he mentioned, but rather was indicating, by those remarks, as I saw them, to show 'what was not finished' was the process of the actual forgiveness of specific sins, and that such is not completed until we fulfill the conditions that God set forth to apply the work of the atonement to our specific lives. That is at least how I understood him. I did not see him as reading anything into the text that cannot be properly assumed to be in accordance to the clear implications of Scripture in that regard.


     
  13. BobRyan

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    God only knows BUT they can be quantified for Christ paid for ALL "And NOT for OUR SINS only but for the sins of the whole world" 1John 2.

    We do not mean "that paper cut Christ suffered at the age of 7 should just about do it".

    The Quantification principle in the sin-suffering economy of God.

    The context is the fiery hell of God where both body and soul are cast into hell and “destroyed” Matt 10:28.






    It is in the context of “that fiery hell” that we find this statement of the quantification of sin and suffering. A sin-suffering economy that not only results in a just measuring out of the quilt and punishment of mankind – but also results in exact payment being owed such that the Savior of mankind can take the exact debt for not only OUR sins but “the Sins of the Whole World”
     
    #13 BobRyan, Jun 10, 2006
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  14. Eric B

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    Nobody's even talking about any "grocery store" concept where we are free to do what we want after salvation. That's yet another straw man device you have made up.

    Still, the question is, are you saved (or will you be saved) because of your own efforts? That seems to be what you are pushing, and anyone who questions that is accused of teaching that we should try to get in with faith without works. You're making the same mistake as the CoC'ers, who think baptism is what saves, rather than accompanying salvation; and the Catholics who think that Christ is present in the bread and wine, rather than being in us as we share communion. Just because one thing should not be present without the other, we think it's all about the other thing.
     
  15. BobRyan

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    I have shown in scripture where those who DO go off and do whatever they wish sometime after salavtion are then condemned. Your response has been that "A- we can not allow those texts to apply to us today" because that threatens security and the stability of salvation (i.e. read OSAS) or "B - those guys ABIDING IN Christ and IN the VINE of Christ are lost while ABIDING in HIM so failing to continue to ABIDE IN Him just makes them losterrr".

    So "yes" I would say you are having a problem with that concept contrary to your claim in the statement above.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Indeed you have to decide whether you're going to condemn the entire Bible doctrine on perseverance as do the 4 point Calvinists (a pure Grocey store model) or if you are going to defend it like the 3 and 5 point Calvinists who claim " you never were saved to start with IF 10 years from today you fail to persevere".

    I pick NEITHER of those failed approaches.

    Which do you pick?

    The 4 and 5 Point Calvinists take the "grocery store" model to its logical conclusion - limited atonement. For IF we have all the goods already - then either ALL mankind is saved or Christ did not atone for ALL MANKIND (from which point they conclude LIMITED GOSPEL at the cross!)

    I pick neither of those -

    Which do you pick?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #16 BobRyan, Jun 11, 2006
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  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    I have just had a quick look at Heavenly Pilgrim's first post on this thread, and must say I've never read anything worse. It merits no comment.
     
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    No, here's something even worse, BobRyan's post of 06-08-2006, 05:54 PM!
     
  19. BobRyan

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    HP's logic is irrefutable once you use the same definition for "debt owed" as being "Suffering for eternity".. THAT is the key centerpiece of his argument and if you agree to it the conclusion is innescapable.

    I do not agree with the central premise since I find the Bible a strong argument against it - THUS the Bible can then go on logically and reasonably to claim EXACT payment for the precise debt of BILLIONS of sinners through all of time.

    But if I were to accept the central primis as stated (as both DHK and GE probably do) I would stuck like they are.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

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    Your lack of substance here in your own posts is unnusual even for you GE.
     

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