A Proper Concept of the Atonement

This is more like the Gospel! Thank God some still can distinguish truth from rubbish.

 

One first needs find substance in yours to be able to answer with substance, BobRyan.

 

Anyway, the argumet relies heavily on the premise that Christ would have to suffer Hell for eternity to pay for every sin, but you forget that one of the biggest necessities of His deity was the ability to pay for all the sins

This is a circular arugment that was stiillborn from the moment of the post. It makes no sense at all to ANSWER the problem of ETERNAL and therefore INFINITE debt owed by ONE person for ONE sin and the fact that an ETERNAL and therefore INFINITE being could only pay for AT MOST ONE -- with the circular argument offerred above.

The fact that this is the hole that both ERIC and DHK settle for is in fact "instructive" as it means -- they have no other option!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Vaccuous post "after" vaccuous post GE?? come on - I don't think I have ever seen you stuck like that before.

 

HP's logic is irrefutable once you use the same definition for "debt owed" as being "Suffering for eternity".. THAT is the key centerpiece of his argument and if you agree to it the conclusion is innescapable.

I do not agree with the central premise since I find the Bible a strong argument against it - THUS the Bible can then go on logically and reasonably to claim EXACT payment for the precise debt of BILLIONS of sinners through all of time.

But if I were to accept the central primis as stated (as both DHK and GE probably do) I would stuck like they are.

 

There are two main differences in my view and the ones that DHK and Eric hold.

#1. The penalty "owed" in God's Holy Just and true law for one sin is not found to be "eternal torture - infinite cost". Your entire argument hinges on that.

#2. The term "Atonement" is bigger than the "atoning sacrifice" completed at the cross if we accept Lev 16 as "the definition". It must include the Work of High Priest that is seen in Lev 16 and that we see in Heb 8. That means that we have the ongoing work of Christ - that is Individually applied according to Heb 4.

Both of these Bible based concepts reveal the significant differences with their views and mine.

As for the "LITERAL PAYMENT" - take a look at Col 2. Paul states clear that the "Certificate of DEBT" is cancelled - paid in full - at the cross.

The Holy Just and True Law of God (Romans 7) continues but the certificate of debt that it generates for each soul (which as we saw in Luke 12 is variable and individually specific) is paid at the cross in the "Atoning Sacrifice 1John 2:2 NIV" part of the Lev 16 Atonement process.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Notice the context is that of making you alive solving the problem of you being dead in transgression.

It is God’s Law that “defines what sin is” as we saw in Rom 3,4, 5, and 7 - it is not a "record of guilt" but a standard of perfect sinless righteousness).

By definition Law has force because it specifies penalties for violation. Then a “certificate of debt” or a “ticket” or a ”fine” is generated for each individual as that person violates the law. As we see in Luke 12:45-55 that penalty is variable and individually specific. The one who knew much and goes to hell owes “much” whereas those in the dark who go to hell will owe less.

What form does this “certificate of debt” specific to each person take?

Clearly it is defined by a record of which sins we commit and how often. A record of some kind must exist to show what each individual owes "according to his deeds"

Clearly the "decrees against us" are written in these books out of which each person is judged "according to their deeds".

So then, what records/defines what each person's debt is? The law is the basis for knowing what is sin, but it is not the transaction of judgment specific to each individual - it is not a “record of guilt” it is instead a standard of judgment. It is the authoritative legal basis upon which judgment is rendered the standard that is compared to the life and actual deeds of each human. The resulting judgment then shows exactly where each one falls short of the glory of God. All are placed under condemnation and incur a debt of sin specific to their actual sins. The Holy Just and true “the spiritual Law of God” (Rom 7) is not that record of sin – it is not the “certificate of debt owed”.

The books of record show our "debt" they record each deed and also determine the debt owed - the "certificate of debt".

However - it is not the books of record that are "nailed to the cross" - rather it is the "debt" that they say each individual "owes". The certificate of debt that they decree as owed (a decree made by comparing our lives against the perfect standard - God's Law), is what is nailed to the cross and stamped "paid in full". And this - for every one of mankind.

But to avail ourselves of that cancelled debt - we must choose Christ - choose to be born again - to have the LAW of God written in our heart - instead of nailed and done away with. To have the new creation that walks after the spirit - instead of rebelling against the Law of God - being hostile to God's Law - refusing to submit and indeed UNNABLE to submit to it (Roman 8:5-8)

Christ took the "stroke due us" the debt of death (Rom 623) was paid, nailed to the cross. It is the debt that is paid - the "certificate of debt" which itself "consists of decrees against us" faithfully records our deeds and what is owed individually -- and Christ pays the debt accumulated by each one of us.

Obviously when the police write out a ticket with a fine attached, then when the fine is canceled (via payment) - the law that defines obedience and violation - is not also cancelled.

 

Also note that the law that defines our sin - is not some local law specific only to the Hebrew nation. (as if only Hebrews need a savior)


God's law places all under condemnation.

Notice that in Galatians 3 Paul equates the law known to NT saints with “scripture” known to NT saints. God’s infallible word places all mankind “under sin” telling the truth – that we are all sinners and in need of a savior – someone who will pay our debt and redeem us.

It must be the law that defines debt and for which the cross was intended as payment. That can only be one law - the moral law. (without it there is no debt, no sin Rom 5).

Rom 5:13 sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 4:14 15 for the law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

 

From the NASB - Quote:
Col 2:
Quote:

14 having canceled out the certificate of debtconsisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and he has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.


Notice the context is that of making you alive solving the problem of you being dead in transgression.

It is God’s Law that “defines what sin is” as we saw in Rom 3,4, 5, and 7 - it is not a "record of guilt" but a standard of perfect sinless righteousness).

By definition Law has force because it specifies penalties for violation. Then a “certificate of debt” or a “ticket” or a ”fine” is generated for each individual as that person violates the law. As we see in Luke 12:45-55 that penalty is variable and individually specific. The one who knew much and goes to hell owes “much” whereas those in the dark who go to hell will owe less.

 

Notice the insight that John Gill gives for Col 2:14

 

Notice that A.T Robertson makes the same observation about the certificate of Debt being paid in full at the Cross.

 

And so I presented you with the Greek text using A.T Robertson's comments as well as the Aramaic using John Gill's comments. So even if you reject the NASB and the other texts showing the reference to a legal bond (debt) or explicitly "Certificate of Debt" -- I have presented you with the ancient language text itself.

This is going way beyond what was needed to respond to your request that I find a text speaking to this point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

That was my starting point see my post --

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=785759&postcount=28

I have simply added to my own expanded exposition of the chapter - the underlying proofs from the ancient language in the text as well as showing modern translation scholarship that agrees with this.

You may therefore select either my own exposition or the NASB translators and others that use the legal term BOND or the ancient texts as shown here- to respond to...

I am more than happy to have you respond to my own exposition given on this thread post 28 in the link above if you prefer.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Your selection is to respond to 'My words" but then appeal to "translation and language".

If your chosen context is to debate at the level of "language and translation" then I offer you both the GREEK and the NASB translation.

If it is your claim that Paul wrote KJV English instead of Greek - then I really don't have a lot to contribute to that argument.

Having said that - it is reasonable to view the "certificate of Debt" that the Greek and Aramaic versions speak to as "hand written decrees against us" which amount to the debt or the "ticket" written against us for each violation - the debt defined.