A question about Calvinisum

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Hanna, Dec 12, 2006.

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  1. Hanna

    Hanna
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    Concerning predestination/election...does this mean that there are those born into the world for whom there is no hope. That no amount of prayer or witnessing will make any difference because God does not/will not/did not choose them?
     
  2. Helen

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    bingo. That's exactly what it means.
     
  3. leah2

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    Aren't we commanded to witness according to Mark 16:15,Acts 1:8 and in 2nd Peter 3:9 it says He(God) is not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentence.
    We don't know who is going to be saved or not saved. only God knows, but that does not take our responsibility of witnessing 'to' and praying 'for' the lost.
    The apostles preached and the disciples preached and witnessed to the lost.
    :)
     
  4. russell55

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    It means there are those born into this world who will persist in their unbelief and opposition to God even though they hear the gospel many times and many people pray for them. The cause of their persistent unbelief, however, is not that God didn't choose them, but their own bent toward sin and away from God.
     
  5. Brother Bob

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    I thought the Calvinist believed they "couldn't hear" because they are "dead in sin".

    Here we go again.

    [​IMG]
     
    #5 Brother Bob, Dec 12, 2006
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  6. russell55

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    That they "can't hear"--which is biblical terminology, btw, so I'm not sure why you put it in quotes--doesn't mean they can't hear the words, or understand how the words fit together, or even pass a multiple choice test on how to be saved. It means that their own bent toward sin keeps them from grasping the true value of the gospel message, and so they persist in their rejection of it. The can't is the can't of stubborn opposition, or intransigent rejection. That's what keeps them from hearing, not anything God does or doesn't do.
     
  7. Tom Butler

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    Hang on, Hanna, your education about Calvinism is about to get underway big-time.
     
  8. Brother Bob

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    If this was Calvinist doctrine then I would say they chose not to listen because of stubborness and I would agree with you all the way. There will be someone along shortly who will set us straight about Calvinism though. :)
     
  9. Jarthur001

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    Hello Hanna,

    It means no such thing. Hope is there even if a person believes it or not. Election does not keep anyone from going to heaven, that really wants to believe in Christ and go to heaven. Without election, there is no hope. The Bible says..."whosoever will may come". But the point is..no one comes to God. Therefore God elects.

    We do not know who the elect are. We are not told to pray for only the elect. We are told to preach the Word of God to sinners. It is not us that saves, but rather salvation is of the Lord. You pray for all men. You share with all men the good news. God will open the heart of who He wills in order that they may believe and be come a child of God. We as mankind, know not who this will be.

    No matter what Hanna, know this. You cannot force salvation on any one. You cannot start praying 500 more times a day to get them saved sooner or faster, or saved in anyway. You cannot pull them to God and force the Holy Spirit into their body. You cannot beat them over the head with the Bible and somehow let this enter the blood and go down into their cold heart.

    You share..and let God work.


    In Christ....James
     
  10. Brother Bob

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    I can't argue with any of that. Seems to be Scripture all the way. Now, that "whosoever will" does that mean that "all" men that have ever been born could choose to serve god and go to Heaven?

    There is always a "calm" before the storm!

    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
     
    #10 Brother Bob, Dec 12, 2006
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  11. OldRegular

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    John Dagg, the first Southern Baptist to write a book on theology, comments [Manual of Theology,page 322] on the natural man’s inability regarding salvation, as follows:

    “Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”
     
  12. Hanna

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    And I thought I was confused before:)

    I guess I should have said, I am not a calvanist. I became aware of this idea only recently and I am having a real struggle trying to understand what it means.

    I can understand that some will not be saved because they refuse to believe or to repent of their sin etc. but the part about God choosing who will be saved I cannot understand. If He chooses who will be saved, then by omission He is condemning others to eternal damnation. But somehow it seems it doesn't work that way and I cannot understand that.
     
  13. Brother Bob

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    Know you not talking to me but the Bible is full of scriptures like this:

    Mar 1:15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

    If man can't believe, I wonder why the Bible is full of Scripture telling him to believe. If God is going to turn him around then why all the scripture telling men to believe, to repent, preaching or even this debate?

    Why try to convince Hanna that she can't do anything until God changes her heart, if that is what you believe. She is asking how to be saved. Why not tell her what Jesus said "go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature and he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"?

    Or, God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever would believe on Him should not perish, but have an everylasting life?

    If you don't care for me because I defend what I believe, so be it, but God loves all men and its not His will that any would perish, and if He stood back and let the majority go to Hell, then that would not be His will.
     
    #13 Brother Bob, Dec 12, 2006
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  14. Hanna

    Hanna
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    True, there are many verses that tell us to repent, to believe. Also verses that say whoever calls, whosoever believes. We must have the capacity to do these things or why would we be told to do them?

    There is however this verse, which makes me scratch my head:/

    Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    But at the same time, there is this verse: Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Which seems to me to indicate that we do understand.
     
  15. Brother Bob

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    You still find the word "believe". I think they were still trying to be justified by the Law.

    Romans: 3
    20: Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
    21: But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    22: Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
    26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    He is saying "by the Law" all are lost and only by the blood of Christ Jesus can they be saved.
     
    #15 Brother Bob, Dec 12, 2006
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  16. Helen

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    Hanna, you are doing fine. I describe my first exposure to Calvinism here:
    http://www.setterfield.org/calvinism.htm

    I ended up resigning as a deaf interpreter for that organization and I spent the next two years reading the Bible cover to cover, several times, looking for the Biblical answer to the doctrines of Calvinism. Everything I read declared it false. God has given us free will. That means we can want something freely. I does not mean we have the power to achieve it, however (which is what Calvinists accuse non-Calvinists of believing many times). An example I often use is that, because I have bad legs, I have always wanted to fly. Not in an airplane -- but me, myself, fly! Can I do it? No way. You know that. But I have the freedom to want it, whether or not I have any iota of ability to achieve what I want.

    And the Bible presents salvation that way. Do you want the truth? Do you want to be released from the horror of trying to elevate/change/exalt/redeem (pick your verb) yourself? Every religion known is predicated upon the fact that man sees that need. Men know something is not right with them, and they seek to better or change themselves.

    And it was Jesus who said "Come to me, all ye that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." I have asked Calvinists before if only those predestined to be saved from before creation 'labor and are heavy-laden' and there has always been a rather noticeable silence. They will argue about the meaning of 'world' and 'all' and such, as though the Bible cannot communicate clearly.

    Read your Bible. Do what I did. Go through it a few times looking for evidences either way. They will argue here until long past time for the cows to come home.

    I will not post here again on this thread. I know better.

    You will try logic with Calvinists. It does not work.
    You will try basic Bible. It will not work.
    You will try common sense. It will not work.

    Eventually you will get tired and frustrated and maybe angry. Some end up in tears. I hope you get out before that happens and just read your Bible, cover to cover. God has the answers and, to my mind, you are definitely on the right track now. PM me or email me if you like; I'll be more than happy to discuss some of this quietly.

    God bless you and give you wisdom.

    In Christ,
    Helen Setterfield
    [email protected]
     
  17. Jarthur001

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    Hanna,

    As you can see, Bob does not believe as Calvinist do. He will do anything to get you not to believe in Calvinism. You may not know what to believe at the moment. There are verses on both sides to look at.

    But I think if you just read the Bible, you will find the truth. A verse here and a verse there will tell you many things. If you take John and read from the start to the end, you will find the truth. If you take Romans, and read from verse one till the end...the truth will be there. If you read a verse here and there, people will mis-lead you.

    I'll not tell you what to believe, but I will share my faith if you wish to hear. I am a 5 point Calvinist. This is why I replied to your post. If you have other things you would like to ask a Calvinist, I am but one of many you can ask. No need to PM or email me. I will talk to you in public. This will give non-Calvinist a chance to defend their side and post more verses out of context. :)

    If you want to know the other side, ask Bob.

    ADDED LATER....or you can ask Helen. She will tell you what not to believe as well.
     
    #17 Jarthur001, Dec 12, 2006
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  18. Tom Butler

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    Hanna, may I suggest that we are getting ahead of ourselves here.

    What I think you should do is to get your concordance out and look up "elect," "election," "choose and chosen," "predestined," "foreordained," and read the scripture verses that your concordance points you to.

    All of us on this board agree that God chooses those who will be saved, and that no one else except the elect ones will be saved.

    So election is a fact. That God chooses is an undisputed fact. Where we part company with each other is over the ground of the election. That is, on what basis does God choose.

    Calvinists say that God chooses from eternity his elect, for his own glory and his good pleasure, without any merit on the part of the chosen.

    Non-Calvinists say that since God knows everything that will happen, he also knows who will repent and have saving faith--and elects them because of his foreknowledge.

    You will also here much discussion of free will. Non-Calvinists will hold that every person is born with the ability to choose Christ or reject him. Calvinists will hold that without the work of the Holy Spirit to change a heart, a man's inevitable choice is "no" to God.

    While you're studying the scriptures, seek illumination and understand from the Holy Spirit. Then browse through some of the other posts on this board. Use the search function up at the top if you'd like. There's already been enough written on this subject to keep you busy for a while.

    Occasionally you'll run into a poster with a razor-sharp keyboard, who loves to attack, attack, attack. Ignore them, looking only at the substance of their posts, not their style.

    Your are not the first person to ask the questions you've been asking. They are legitimate questions and you will get more than enough answers.
     
  19. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Yes it does.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  20. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I agree.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
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