A question about Elijah and Jesus.

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by pawn raider, Apr 7, 2004.

  1. pawn raider

    pawn raider
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    I'm currently debating a Baha'i and he has brought up a good point. He notes that in the Old Testament Elijah was prophecied to return and that John the Baptist is the return of Elijah as Jesus himself admits yet John himself denies. If this is so, then their (false) prophet is the return of Jesus as Jesus himself prophecied that HE would return. How would you respond?
     
  2. Paul of Eugene

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    The correctness or the failure of the baha'i prophet stands or falls on its own merits; it is not going to find support in the Bible. Instead, they should note the scriptural injunction against adding to the words of "this book".
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Jesus affirms that John is the fulfilmment of the promise of a prophet coming in the spirit and power of Elijah.

    Anyone claiming to be the "fulfillment" of the scriptures regarding the return of Christ - must fulfill the "specifics", they must address the "details" that scripture gives about that return of Christ -- all of them.

    A hence - the problem of the Baha'i group - they don't meet the specifics detailed in scripture for the return of Christ.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Audra

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    John the Baptist said he was not Elijah. He wasn't. He was a type of Elijah.
     
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Please correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the second "Elijah" supposed to be the voice calling out in the wilderness making way for the coming of the Messiah? I thinkI remeber something about that. It seems to me that this is exactly what John the Baptist did, and that Jesus was the Messiah. Perhaps, I am not completely understanding the dispute here.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  6. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Oh, I understand now. They are talking about the second coming of Christ, right? I would respond with the following:

    1. Their false prophet was not Jesus.
    2. He did not come in judgement.
    3. You might want to re-examine the meaning of the coming of Christ (see discussions about preterism, the day of the Lord, and the comings of the Lord).

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Jesus affirms that John is the fulfilmment of the promise of a prophet coming in the spirit and power of Elijah.


    Matthew 11:14
    "And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.


    A reference to
    Malachi 4
    5 "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.

    Which is NOT a doctrine of reincarnation - since in fact Elijah was still living at that time of Christ --
    Matthew 17:3
    And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. Audra

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    Read the account further Bob. Matt 17:9 Christ, himself, said it was a vision, not reality.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    There is no place in scripture that says any being that you see in a vision "is not real". In fact that term can apply to any manifestation of heavenly beings in real form. It is true that a vision can show things that are "not there" but it can also reference real appearances of real heavenly messengers.

    In any case - Elijah was still alive. The OT declares that he was taken up to heaven by God - rather then dying.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Audra

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    And what is the Hebrew word used for heaven in that case? It's the same word that means the earthly sky - below the clouds.

    He was taken out of sight and his body put where others could not find it.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    That seems pretty bogus.

    The idea that God takes Elijah "up to heaven" as if "up to heaven" means "down in the ground" for OT hebrews - is just silly.

    You have to "want to believe it" before you read 2Kings 2 because you don't find anything about "burying out of sight" or "up to the clouds then underground" in the text.

    And in the other OT texts about heaven - we do not infer "up past the clouds then down under the ground" as the meaning of "heaven".

    1 Kings 22:19
    Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left.

    Psalm 2:4
    The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them.

    Is it your view that God has no place for His throne on "clear cloudless days"?

    I think you are taking a very wooden definition for the OT term because you "need" Elijah not to actually go to heaven as 2Kings 2 states it.

    But I don't know why you have that as a requirement.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Audra

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    Look up the Hebrew word for heaven used in that verse......then you will know.........
     
  13. Jude

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    I used to be a Bahai. I used to attend 'Firesides' in Omaha. I saw the Light. I became a Christian. John is a 'type' of Elijah. And no, Baha 'u' lah is NOT a prophet, is NOT of God, and is not the "Promised One". Jesus will return to usher-in the end of human history and the full-reign of God's Kingdom.
     
  14. Jude

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    The Bahai' Temple in Wilmette, Illinois, in it's architecture, speaks of the philsophy of this religion. It has 9 hallways/sides, each representing what Baha’is believe are the nine manifestations of God. They include Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Buddha , Jesus and Muhammad. They converge on a central worship space. The message? All roads lead to God. Seals and Crofts liked the idea. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO MAN comes to the Father but through me." I'll trust Jesus.
    (if you would like to see a picture of this 'Temple', click... http://www.rreini.com/personal_bahai/houseofworship.htm

    from detroitbahai.org comes the following information about this religion...

    "The Bahá'í Faith is the youngest of the world's major religions. It was founded in 1844 in Iran and has spread to over 230 countries (second only to Christianity) with nearly 6 million believers.
    Bahá'ís everywhere are striving to establish the oneness of humanity, to eliminate prejudice and to renew the spiritual values which all the Messengers of God have brought to humanity since the beginning of time.

    BASIC TEACHINGS
    The basic teachings of the Bahá'í Faith are:

    * The oneness of God
    * The oneness of humanity
    * Independent investigation of truth
    * The common foundation of all religions
    * The essential harmony of science and religion
    * The equality of men and women
    * The elimination of all kinds and forms of prejudice and discrimination
    * Universal compulsory education
    * A spiritual solution to the economic problems facing the world
    * A universal auxiliary language
    * Universal peace upheld by a world government

    THE CENTRAL FIGURES
    The Herald-Martyr: the Báb
    The Báb was born October 20, 1819 in Iran. His name in Arabic means "the gate".
    He became a merchant in Shíráz where, on the evening of May 22, 1844, He declared His mission. He declared that He was the Qá'im of Shi'a Islám, heralding the imminent advent of the Promised One of all the world's religions. The vast majority of Muslim clerics and government officials rejected His claim and severely persecuted Him and His followers. For half of His ministry, He was imprisoned in various locations in Iran. On July 9, 1850, the Báb was executed by a firing squad in Tabríz, Iran.

    The Founder: Bahá'u'lláh
    Bahá'u'lláh, the Prophet-Founder of the Bahá'í Faith, was born November 12, 1817 in Iran. His name in Arabic means "the glory of God." He became an early follower of the Báb. Though His father had been an important government official, this did not prevent Him from being beaten and imprisoned. While imprisoned in 1852/3, He had a vision in which He learned of His mission.
    Upon His release in 1853, He was forced to go into exile in Baghdad, Iraq, where He, His family, and many of His followers lived for the next ten years. In 1863, when He was forced to leave Baghdad for Constantinople and Adrianople in Turkey, He declared His mission publicly for the first time. In 1867, as the result of continued agitation by Iranian government officials and other people, He and His followers were exiled to 'Akká (Acre) in Palestine, near Haifa. He spent the rest of His life and ministry in and around 'Akká, where He ascended to Heaven on May 29, 1892.


    The Expounder: 'Abdu'l-Bahá
    'Abdu'l-Bahá (Arabic for "servant of Bahá") was born on May 23, 1844, the same day that the Báb first declared His mission. He was the eldest son of Bahá'u'lláh and was a constant companion of His father. As He matured, He began to handle the relations of the Bahá'í community with the outside world, permitting Bahá'u'lláh to reveal the Word of God without much distraction. When Bahá'u'lláh ascended, He appointed 'Abdu'l-Bahá as His successor and the Center of His Covenant. For the next 29 years, he led the Bahá'í community. In 1911 through 1913, He traveled extensively throughout the West (Europe and America), spreading the news about the Faith wherever He went. He was well-respected by everyone in 'Akká and Haifa, even the non-Bahá'ís. He ascended to Heaven on November 28, 1921."

    It's funny, I haven't thought about my being a Bahai (I was a member for 2 years) for a long time. These are generally 'good' people, but desperately lost. I've thought -in the past- in would be great to see a Mission established to evangelize Bahais.

    [ April 22, 2004, 12:11 AM: Message edited by: Jude ]
     
  15. BobRyan

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    #1. You still have not explained why you insert this bogus idea into the 2Kings 2:1 text.

    #2. I have shown cases where the SAME word is used in both 2Kings 2:1 and Ps 2:9 and in 1Kings 22:19.

    #3. There is NO CASE IN ALL OF SCRIPTURE - where "taken up to heaven" means "past clouds and then underground".

    I think this haphazzard view of the Bible that is taken by the Bahai group - contributes to its lack of acceptance.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Audra

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    Have you looked up the word ? Or are you just attacking without proof?
     
  17. BobRyan

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    It is the same word that is used of God's Throne.

    (As has been shown).

    Nothing about Up to heaven meaning "past clouds then underground" in all of scripture.

    Not too hard to miss.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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