A Question about Galatians 5:22-23

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Archangel, May 14, 2010.

  1. The Archangel

    The Archangel
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    To All,

    Winman is well-known to us as a KJV-guy. I ran across this problem a few months ago and I don't hold it to be a big problem (mostly because I'm not KJV-only).

    I'm hoping that Winman or anyone else can tell me why this is not a true problem.

    So here's the question:

    I've been wondering how King James Only Arminians deal with the Fruit of the Spirit passage of Galatians 5.

    The King James Version (KJV) clearly states that Faith is a fruit of the Spirit:
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (emphasis mine)
    Now, it would appear that the KJV is stating that Faith comes by way of the spirit--so that faith itself is an outworking of what the spirit does in you.

    Now, most modern translations--ESV, NIV, etc.--translate this thusly:
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. (ESV; emphasis mine)
    So the modern translations say it is faithfulness that the spirit produces. The Greek is πίστις--meaning "Faith," not "faithfulness."

    So KJV Arminians are left with an uncomfortable conundrum:

    1. Hold that the KJV is the one true translation (as many KJV-only people claim) and accept that a person's faith is a gift--a fruit--of the Holy Spirit

    OR

    2. Reject the KJV as the true translation because you cannot accept that faith is a gift--or fruit--of the Spirit.

    Which is it? I'm sure the common answer will be "neither." But I hope Winman or anyone else can explain why these two points are not at odds.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  2. MB

    MB
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    What is faith Archangle? If you see someones faith what do you see it in? Isn't it in there faithfulness to do God's will? Faith is a fruit of the Spirit. It's also a gift Eph 2:8. Funny isn't it? If we have no faith we have no Grace with which to be saved. You see Grace comes through faith that means faith is in place first before Salvation. Doesn't that blow your mind.
    MB
     
  3. The Archangel

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    For the record, my moniker is "Archangel," not "Archangle." There is no need to be geometric with my name.

    I believe faith is a gift. To state it more deliberately--I believe grace and faith are both gifts, they are like two sides of the same coin.

    It does indeed blow my mind that God issues a command and--by His grace and for His good pleasure--He equips those whom He has chosen with the means to follow the command. His grace is truly amazing.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  4. Cypress

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    The fruits are by no means only characteristic of those who are saved......They are common and growing in abundance in those who are though, and as such are evidence of the Spirits work in the life of a believer.
     
  5. John Toppass

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    I know many KJVO's and they most certainly are not Armenian. I was wondering why you state that they are. Are you seperating the KJVO's or do you not know the difference?
     
  6. jbh28

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    Who said they were an ArmEnian?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians :D
     
  7. The Archangel

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    John,

    If you will look closely, the thread is addressed to Winman who is a KJVO and an arminian (or at least a non-Calvinist).

    Further, in the post itself, I address KJVO arminians in general. So the post seeks to ask KJVO arminians how they reconcile these two things since most arminians say that faith cannot be a gift and KJVO people say that the KJV is the only preserved translation. There is a conundrum for persons who are both KJVO and arminian, not one or the other.

    Nowhere do I say they are one-in-the-same. You are reading that into the OP.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  8. saturneptune

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    Arch,
    Are you a right angel or an obtuse angel?
     
  9. Skandelon

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    I'm not a KJO guy either, however this question presents a false dichotomy by presuming that "Arminians" don't believe that faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Consider these questions:
    1. Do Arminians believe the gospel was sent by God through the work of His Spirit? YES

    2. Do Arminians believe the gospel is preached by those filled with the Spirit? YES

    3. Thus, do Arminians believe that the gospel is a WORK of the Holy Spirit? YES

    Conclusion: Faith, which cometh by hearing the gospel, is a gift of the Holy Spirit. We just don't believe its an irresistible gift, as you do. As an analogy: if a mother organized an intervention for her alcoholic son convincing him to seek professional treatment that she would pay for in full, would it be accurate for him to thank and credit his mother for his recovery? Even if others were involved in the process and he had to submit himself to the process the initial work/gift was from the mother. So too, man's faith is a result of God's initial work/gift regardless of whether its effectually/irresistibly applied.
     
  10. jbh28

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    You say that faith is a gift of God, which I agree. What is the difference between the one that accepts the gift of faith and the one that doesn't?
     
  11. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    What's the difference between the Christian that is a Calvinist and the one that is not?
     
  12. jbh28

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    Calvinist is right and the one that is not is wrong.... :D Sorry, it was just there.
     
  13. The Archangel

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    Well...saturneptune...I have my right moments and my obtuse moments.

    I really laughed at your post. Thank you--sincerely--for the laugh!

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  14. The Archangel

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    Mr. Stumbling Block,

    I see your point, though I think you'd admit you are stretching a bit here. Be that is it may or may not be, the question is directed at Winman, specifically. I'm curious to see how he as a KJVO and an arminian (who definitely believes that faith is not a gift) reconciles these two things.

    Your questions are not germane to this thread, but they'd be interesting in another thread.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  15. AresMan

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    I'll take a guess as to how Winman will answer:

    "Yes, faith is a fruit of the Spirit. That doesn't mean that it is only of the Spirit."

    or something like that.
     
  16. rsr

    rsr
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    To all:

    Since this thread deals with translation issues, it is subject to being moved to another forum. I will allow it to remain unless it gets out of hand, which such threads are known to do frequently.

    rsr
     
  17. Cypress

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    Ares, do you disagree with the answer you gave for Winman?........... I said as much earlier and had the same thought that the OP presents a false dichotomy.
     
  18. AresMan

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    No, in the sense that I believe that the faith spoken of here has to do with God-ward righteousness--something that evidences regeneration. Winman would simply try to compare the same faith that makes Christian martyrs with the "faith" that one has that flipping a light switch should make the room brighter.
     
  19. psalms109:31

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    Just they way we are

    Faith comes to us through the words of Jesus and the words of Jesus is Spirit and life. We have to open the door to let him in. The beauty of the Gospel is we can open the door just the way we are, or keep it closed. That is the power of the words of Jesus. To do this just the way we are is the beauty of our gospel the good news. How precious is the feet that carry the words of Christ.. The fruit we produce from the Spirit give freely as Christ has done for us.
     
  20. Cypress

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    I agree that the faith or faithfulness spoken of here evidences regeneration but in context you would have to also infer that the other fruits spoken of must only come from the
    Spirit if it were to cause Aminian KJVO's a problem(which I am neither of). And the text does not support that in my view.
     

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