A question about God's justice

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Pastor J.R. Hampton, Apr 6, 2003.

  1. Pastor J.R. Hampton

    Pastor J.R. Hampton
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    One major question which I'm sure you probably have discussed at one point on this board but that has troubled me concerning the Calvinistic doctrine has to do with God's justice.

    Would God be just in demanding something from his creation that he did not give the ability to accomplish and then judging his creation for not doing that which the creator did not create within them the ability to do?

    Does this question make since? Can someone help me understand how this can be reconciled from scripture? Thank you all. [​IMG]
     
  2. Yelsew

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    The question has been asked and discussed, but there is merit in redigesting it.

    The answer is quite simple. Do you, a human father, judge and sentence your own small child for things you have not equipped your child to be or do? Of course you don't. You go to great lengths to teach or equip your child, then you you put your child to the test before judging. Even then you do not carry out a sentence against the child, but instead put him into additional training. God the father is our example that we follow.
     
  3. KenH

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    Good question.

    My understanding of this is that we did have such ability in Adam and when we sinned in Adam, we lost such ability. Therefore, it is not a matter of God not giving humans such ability but rather that God created man with such ability that was lost when Adam plunged our race into great spiritual misery by sinning.

    Man is responsible for his inability, not God.

    I hope this helps. [​IMG]
     
  4. Frogman

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    He is God our Father.

    He is not an emotional being, whose justice is founded on the 'ideal' justice of man, but rather founded from true holiness.

    His thoughts are not our thoughts and they are much higher than ours.

    Because all men are in the same pool of depravity, the topic of justice of God is not 'innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.'

    All men have been concluded guilty, it is in this court of God's justice that man has been redeemed; it is those who were in Christ as he stood in this court who are redeemed. There is no question of justice or not.

    John 17.1-2

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  5. tyndale1946

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    One question are all men created equal?... If they are why at the potters house is it shown that they are not?... The potter always has power over the clay... To make the vessels he sees fit for his glory and honor... Whether they are vessels for honor or fitted for destruction!... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist [​IMG]

    Welcome Preacher J.R to the C/A Debate Forum... Hope you enjoy your stay here... I'm sure you will find this forum the liveliest... most heated and passionate forum on the BB... Brother Glen Moderator [​IMG]
     
  6. npetreley

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    Hi, and welcome!

    IMO, the best way to answer this question is to first ask yourself if you believe God is just. Then you need to ask yourself if we do not have the ability to comply with anything God demands from us.

    Do you see the difference? The question is not whether God is just. If you don't believe God is just, then it doesn't matter what you think He does with His creation, because you can't trust Him. If you do believe He is just, then it doesn't matter what He does with His creation because you know it is just. All you have to do is discover whether or not the thing in question is true.

    Now - assuming you believe God is just - let's ask the question that remains: "Has God ever required anything from His creatures that He hasn't enabled them to supply, do, or live up to?"
     
  7. Frogman

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    Excellent post Npetreley!

    Bro. Dallas
     
  8. Bible-belted

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    The naswer is yes, and we have the example of the Law in salvation history. God commanded that all the Law be obeyed, knowing full well it could not be fully obeyed, and the this failuer would bring epopele under ever mor judgment.

    That's where Jesus comes in. Being God He was able to fully obey, and became the perfectg scrifice for our sins, propitiating the wrath of the Father. In this God both condemned sin, including that which came abut through failure to obey the Law and atoned for it. God is both just and the justifier. A reading of Romans 3:21-26 would be helpful I think.
     
  9. Ray Berrian

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    Pastor J.R. Hampton,

    Welcome to the Baptist Board.

    God does not 'chop-up and divide His love' for only the alleged favored and elected sinners unto salvation. Neither does He prostitute His justice in relation toward all, alleged non-elect souls. His love and justice are infinite. What I am saying is that in no way is it possible for Him to love only sinners soon to be elect and ignore, despise or neglect the sinners who will finally remain apart from Him. [John 3:16; Acts 17:30]

    It is impossible, because of Christ's Divine justice, for Him to autocratically select some for Heaven and the majority [Matthew 7:13e] for Hell.

    Because God's love and justice is infinite it means that His justice extends indefinitely. The word, infinite means that His justice is immeasurably and inconceivably great and extensive in it ability to extend itself toward all lost souls.

    Dr. Paul Enns says in his book, "The Moody Handbook of Theology, page196 that 'The justice of God means that God is entirely correct and just in all His dealings with humanity; moreover, this justice acts in accordance with His law.'

    God's moral law has eternally kept Him away from partiality and injustice [Acts 10:34] by ordaining that every human being after hearing the Gospel has a perfect right to believe and trust in Jesus as personal Savior. [John 5:24]

    His infinite love extends to all human beings and the Bible says that 'He wishes all men {and women} to be saved . . . ' [I Timothy 2:4]

    The aid of the Holy Spirit insures that His infinite love reaches all people. [Revelation 22:17]

    Deuteronomy 10:17 a,b,c,d,e,f strongly tells us that He could not have autocratically sent Jacob to Heaven and Esau to Hell. In Romans 9 the Apostle Paul was showing that in His wise judgment He works and administers world affairs for His own honor and glory.

    Human salvation is dependent on His atonement [I John 2:2} and is pivoted on whether or not sinners believe and trust in Him for salvation and everlasting life. [John 3:18] Those who savingly believe in Christ become His elect saints and are made fit through His grace [Ephesians 2:8] and blood.
     
  10. Frogman

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    So, how does he finally bring himself to this position to which he is able to 'despise or neglect' these same sinners for an eternity, whose torments and suffering, no doubt shall occur even in His presence?

    Hard question, but not tricky, it only requires a right dividing of the word of God, note that right is akin to righteous and we know who is righteous...don't we?

    Don't limit God now to something that we cannot limit him to in eternity, if the thought of the suffering of those lost is going to drive Him to madness, what of those whose shreiks are now echoing through the pit of Hell?

    Poor, poor, poor God that you envision my brother.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  11. Frogman

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    Originally posted by Pastor J.R. Hampton:
    Justice of God Scripture References:

    Deut. 32.4
    Job 4.17; 8.3; 34.12
    Is. 45.21
    Zeph. 3.5
    I John 1.9
    Rev. 15.3

    Here is where I am going to start.
    "He is a the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgement: a God of truth without iniquity, just and right is he." Deut. 32.4

    OK, I'll be your huckleberry. I have shown my start, chosen my weapons, etc., etc., ad noseum. :D

    Be back after I follow the direction of Christ to the Pharisees and go, learn what this means.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  12. Yelsew

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    Good question.

    My understanding of this is that we did have such ability in Adam and when we sinned in Adam, we lost such ability. Therefore, it is not a matter of God not giving humans such ability but rather that God created man with such ability that was lost when Adam plunged our race into great spiritual misery by sinning.

    Man is responsible for his inability, not God.

    I hope this helps. [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]It seems you are saying that gave man the CAPABILITY, and that man is now responsible to have the ABILITY, and that if man fails man is responsibility for his inability. That seems quite counter to the Calvinist position.
     
  13. Frogman

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    Ken can correct me if I am wrong. But I think what he is saying is that man is responsible in as much as Adam is/was responsible. Thus in Adam all men died, when sin entered. At the beginning of all God lay the responsibility upon man, man failed and yet fails today.

    This does not deny that man is responsible.

    I believe the problem is that everyone wants to make God responsible, so when they approach the Doctrine of Grace they find that this is an easy argument to foster rather than ultimately admitting the responsibility of man and coming to God through Christ as God intended.

    If that is confusing let me try to make it better (or worse :D ). In other words, men do not want to be broken in their spirit, they see the doctrines of Grace as being wholly contrary to the will of man, leaving him out completely of all the works involved in salvation, thus they invent the idea that man is not responsible, or else God is unjust.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Even typing 40 wpm I still have time to wave [​IMG] as I zoom by.
     
  14. Yelsew

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  15. Frogman

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    Seems you're pretty fast on the draw yourself 'pilgrim.'

    Let's see...Rev. 14.6 & 7...ok.

    Speaking of the Gospel which shall be declared to the 'earth-dwellers' at the time of Jacob's trouble. Has nothing to do with this present age. Read vss. 9-12 if you want a monkey wrench cast into your well greased machine.

    Revelation 19:11-21

    Isn't it odd to you that the 15th verse conincides with Is. 63.3?


    Revelation 20:11-15
    Note that here vs. 13 does seem to speak to the fact that man is judged according to his works; those who are not written in the book of life, wonder what works they are able to offer up? Are these going to be fruit of the Spirit? I believe we, (Calvinists, Gracers, etc.,) have consistently stated that man is equally destitute before God, that all men, if not for the elect for whom Christ died would equally share in this condemnation, which by rights belong to us all according to our works, if not for the unmerited favor of God. (Which for all of you non-Gracers, that is the long way for saying Grace).

    I, nor has any other ever denied the judgement of God. But we only maintain those of the elect were judged in Christ.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  16. Ray Berrian

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    'He {John Wesley} believed that the exegetical problem lay in the fact that they {Calvinists} had separated God's attributes, focusing exclusively on sovereignty without sufficient attention to how other attributes define the whole nature of God and thus modify an election motif. He wrote that we must "never speak of the sovereignty of God but in conjunction with His other attributes. For the Scriptures nowhere speaks of this single attribute as separate from the rest. Much less does it anywhere speak of the sovereignty of God as singly disposing the eternal states of men."' (John Wesley, Predestination Calmly Considered, Works (Jackson), 10:220. [or] Dr. J. Steven Harper, "Four Views on Eternal Security, Zondervan, p.250 (end quote)

    Sovereignty cannot override God's justice and love otherwise you end up with Extreme Calvinism with its doctrines of Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and Irresistible Grace. No one should make sovereignty transcend the other attributes of Christ, otherwise, one ends up with a distorted view of God.

    This is why Election is conditioned by human response, the atonement is for all sinners, and it is possible to resist His grace.
     
  17. npetreley

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    The error in this approach is that it extracts the attributes of God from scripture while ignoring the facts that go along with them. It takes a little bit of sovereignty here, a bit of love there, some justice from over there, righteousness from that place, and then mixes them up according to man's recipe in order to bake a pleasant tasting cake of a conclusion.

    In the meantime, the recipe ignores the plain facts that were behind these attributes. For example, you take a statement such as "no man can come to Me unless it is given to him by the Father". You want to keep the sovereignty behind that statement but discard the distasteful consequences. So you try to cover up the flavor you don't like with a dash of love. You end up making the messages of the Bible taste better at the expense of truth.
     
  18. Ray Berrian

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    Npetreley,

    Your statement is filled with license and 100% error, and this is the best construction that I can place on your post number 1277.

    It is the Calvinist who takes a little love and says that God gives it to the elect, and then turns around and gives a huge portion of hatred into the hands of the non-elect.

    Moving from the attribute of love to that of justice, let me say that allegedly God becomes fair/just toward those who He autocratically regenerates while willfully damning the majority, even in the light that they were no worse than the ones He chose for everlasting life. Ask a Calvinist why and they will or might say that this is His 'secret will or a mystery.' This is what makes your cake unpalatable.

    I concur with John Wesley that sovereignty is top-heavy while minimizing the rest of His Divine attributes such as love and justice. Arminian theology is a flavorful tasting view because it is truth coming from Almighty God Who really does love all of His created beings called human beings/sinners. [I Timothy 2:4]

    Come on now, you can be more logical and forthright than that in your post against the Divine justice of the Triune Godhead.

    Calvinists twist the Scriptures and on top of this, then try to disable the facts of God's Divine attributes. I challenge you to study the Justice of God and you will find that in all of His decisions He has been and will be fair with human beings.
     
  19. npetreley

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    Ray, you simply illustrate my point with your response. You go on ad nauseum about God's attributes while ignoring the message of election in any of the texts that reveal them. You can't make these texts go away simply because you have an opinion about what you think are lopsided views.
     
  20. Frogman

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    Originally posted by Ray Berrian:

    That looks more like destruction which is what the will of man desires to do to the sovereignty of God.

    It is amazing how that a "lost" person does not recognize this condition. Isn't it? Why do we want to force upon God a love for a lost person when it is their iniquities that have separated them from God and they are happy with this, living adulterous, drunken, riotous lives and claiming the children of God to be weak minded?

    I don't understand why when people are at enmity with God, we require God to be reconciled to them.

    The secret things do belong to God don't they brother.

    The justice of God can not be equated to your and my own idea of justice. Sorry, I tried to make God just according to my view once upon a time and when He was done with my offering every excuse and being blown about by every doctrine he again broke my heart. He did this exactly as a surgeon, because he knew what would break that heart of mine and humble my spirit. He knows the same for every man. Let's permit Him to work, shall we, in this way we can be sure the people know the power of God. {Reference B.H. Carroll's testimony of his experience(s).}

    It is flavorful because it agrees with man, men love this. I wonder of John Wesley's credibility, personally.

    It is your logic that argues the Divine justice of God is unfair, not Npetreley's.


    Truly God is fair, even were Christ to die and no man were saved by it this would be fair, wouldn't you agree. The truth of the matter is that we cannot know the justice of God as long as the will of man blinds us to it. This same justice of God that operates by Divine decree in the world today is that same which some day shall require my loved ones to rejoice and say Amen, were God to deny that my salvation were real and thus condemn me. Do you understand? There are to be no tears in heaven, correct? Then, by the grandmother stories of Arminianism and free-willers, you are denying the truth of Scripture that God is able to wipe away these tears, if grandma is looking for grandson, then won't she be unhappy if he does not make it? This is the hurt that is done to scripture to teach it from the point of view of man and call it looking through the eyes of God. What do we know of justice? 0000000000000000000 That is about it.

    Further, while I am here, the teaching that departed love ones are watching us, can see us, etc. How much more false can this be? Are they in the presence of Christ? Are they being comforted? Then it is the purpose of God to show to them the continued struggles, heartbreak and pain of their loved ones in this world? Yeah, you guys have a beautiful levelled sense of the JUSTICE OF GOD, don't ya? :rolleyes:

    Bro. Dallas
     

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