A question about hell

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Emily25069, Apr 19, 2006.

  1. Emily25069

    Emily25069
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    I have been browsing the threads lately and have read in passing some information about hell and I have just a simple question.

    It has always been my understanding that those who do not accept Jesus Christ burn in hell forever. I have read from a couple of different people that this is not true, and that eternal fire is different from burning in fire for all eternity.

    I have never heard this before.

    Is this true? Scripture references?
     
  2. Grasshopper

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    Until recently have always held to the traditional view, I'm now not sure but lean toward annihilation.

    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    What does perish mean?

    Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    What did the Tree of Life provide?

    Was man created immortal? Is the soul immortal? How does one "burn forever" if one is not immortal?

    I have found the doctrine of eternal punishment is not near as clear as I had been led to believe.

    Interesting book is "The Fire that Consumes" by Edward Fudge.
     
  3. menageriekeeper

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    Ah, but Grasshopper, how do you deal with the parable of the rich man "being in torments"? Would Christ have used this story as a warning if no such place existed?
     
  4. Brother Bob

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    I will give you what I believe with Scriptures.

    Luke, chapter 16
    "23": And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    "24": And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

    The following Scripture gives me reason to believe that it was the rich man's soul that was in Hell in the above Scripture and his body was in the grave. I also believe that Lazarus, who was in Abraham's bosom, that it was Lazarus's soul in Heaven.


    Acts, chapter 2
    "27": Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    In the following Scripture we see the judgement where that hell gives up the dead in them (which would be the soul of the lost) and death gives up the dead that are in them (which would be their bodies) and they were judged by the things written in the book according to their works and death and hell were cast into a lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death.

    Revelation, chapter 20
    "12": And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    "13": And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    "14": And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    "15": And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Now the smoke of their torment will ascend for ever and ever which is the second death. I believe as the righteous will have a spiritual body that can't die and go to Heaven, even so, the sinner will be given a body when he is resurrected that will die but never die (where the worm dieth not) and the Lake of fire will hold both soul and body of the sinner and the devil and his angels, where hell only holds the soul of the unrighteous.

    I am sure others will differ but this is what I believe about the resurrection. I think it will be a quick work the Lord will do when He comes. He will receive the righteous and pass judgement on the unrighteous. When Jesus was on the earth He said "I judge ye not but the words I speak shall judge you in the last day,(hence the books were opened).amen

    BBob
     
  5. Grasshopper

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    I do not deny its existence. I also agree that passage is a parable.

    Does his soul have a tongue?

    “hell” in the literal translation is hades:

    Act 2:27 because Thou wilt not leave my soul to hades, nor wilt Thou give Thy Kind One to see corruption;

    Hades was the place of the dead. Gill says even the dead saint’s souls were there:

    Act 2:27 - Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, .... This is an apostrophe, or an address to his Father, who he believed would not leave his soul, as separate from his body, in Hades, in the invisible world of souls, in the place where the souls of departed saints are,

    Paul was quoting Psalms:

    Psa 16:8 I did place Jehovah before me continually, Because--at my right hand I am not moved.
    Psa 16:9 Therefore hath my heart been glad, And my honour doth rejoice, Also my flesh dwelleth confidently:
    Psa 16:10 For Thou dost not leave my soul to Sheol, Nor givest thy saintly one to see corruption.

    So hell is cast into hell?
     
  6. Hope of Glory

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    Hell is the place of the dead. Jesus went to hell when he died.
     
  7. Brother Bob

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    God did not use a lie to get his message across.

    Apparently so or at least he could speak and hear. The following Scripture is not talking about the natural ear.

    "7": He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    The following shows he talks to us and not natural so either.

    Romans, chapter 8
    "16": The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:



    Was an example to show the soul in Hell but could of used the rich man's soul instead.



    No!!!, It plainly says that Hell will be cast into a lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death and those are the words of the Lord, you question them?
     
  8. Brother Bob

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    According to the Scriptures Hell is several places. One is the grave, one is the belly of the Whale and the other is where the Lord went and I personally don't believe it was talking about the grave or eternal Hell for His soul was not in the grave.
    Also the eternal Hell. Hell is a place of confinement and when Jesus's soul was in hell had to be a place where He was confined and His soul was still with him.
    "Father I commend my Spirit unto thy hands".

    [ April 20, 2006, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]
     
  9. menageriekeeper

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    'Hades was the place of the dead. Gill says even the dead saint’s souls were there:'

    How does "Gill" explain why Abraham and Lazerus weren't where the rich man was. If Christ didn't use fiction to teach truth, then the saints didn't end up in the same place as the unrighteous.
     
  10. Grasshopper

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    So parables are God’s lies?

    So did he have a literal tongue or not? Was it a parable or a real event? If it was a real event then his soul had a tongue according to your previous statement.

    Completely irrelevant to our discussion.

    I thought you were talking about the rich man’s soul?????

    I question your words, not God’s. So in your view where do the lost spend eternity, in hell or the lake of fire and brimstone? Keep in mind the original question when you answer:

    It has always been my understanding that those who do not accept Jesus Christ burn in hell forever.
     
  11. Brother Bob

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  12. Marcia

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    Hell sometimes means Hades, which is the place of the daed, also called the grave. Those are all the same thing.

    The Lake of fire is what we usually mean when we say "hell" today. This is the place of eternal punishment. So "hell/Hades," that is the grave, will be cast into the lake of fire -- there will no longer be any who die physically. That is over with at that point.
     
  13. Brother Bob

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    When it speaks of the rich's mans soul in hell it is not talking about no grave but a place for the souls of the wicked until judgement day. Jesus soul did not go in the grave, but was in a place of confinement. Hell is also a place of confinement in the Bible in several ways certainly not just Hades. There is no punishment in the grave, the dead knoweth nothing but in the hell where the rich man is there is flames.I for one believe this parable is the real thing.
     
  14. Grasshopper

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    Well, I won’t answer for John Gill, but they were sure close enough to each other for the Rich Man to ask this question:

    Luk 16:24 and having cried, he said, Father Abraham, deal kindly with me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and may cool my tongue, because I am distressed in this flame.

    Perhaps Sheol is divided, part for the saints the other part for the lost:

    Luk 16:26 and besides all these things, between us and you a great chasm is fixed, so that they who are willing to go over from hence unto you are not able, nor do they from thence to us pass through.


    Perhaps this parable has nothing to do with eternal punishment but is a parable about the kingdom and who enters:

    Mat 13:10 And the disciples said to Him, Why do You speak to them in parables?
    Mat 13:11 He answered and said to them, Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but it is not given to them.
     
  15. Brother Bob

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    That just proves my point that much more for the mysteries of Heaven sure are not false.

    Abraham was a type and figure of God for he was the father of faith and Lazarus was in his bosom. You think God has any trouble communicating wherever? And the great gulf between them was the sins of the rich man I think. The fact that they spoke means nothing in distance. Have you ever had a little talk with God?

    1 Thessalonians, chapter 4
    "14": For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (This is where Lazarus is.)
     
  16. Brother Bob

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    BTW did Gill believe the Saint's souls were dead. He must have to believe they were in a place of the dead.

    perhaps both, Heaven and Hell!!
     
  17. Grasshopper

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    Do you believe souls don't die?

    Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine. As the soul of the father, also the soul of the son, they are Mine. The soul that sins, it shall die.
     
  18. menageriekeeper

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    LOL, I still don't know who "Gill" is only that his first name is John.

    Be that as it may, Grasshopper, you quoted him so you should have some idea of his thinking on the issue of the separation of saints from sinners in the afterlife, before Christ's ressurection, and certainly before "Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire".

    My personal belief is that the Ezekial passage refers to the separation of a soul from God and not actual destruction to point where the soul no longer exists. That may happen at the time death and hell are destroyed, but I don't see any evidence of it occuring before then. Not sure a good arguement can be made that souls are destroyed even then.
     
  19. Me4Him

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    Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

    Mr 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

    Mr 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

    Mr 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

    Why keep the fire burning if there is no one in it????
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    http://www.siteone.com/religion/baptist/baptistpage/Portraits/gill.htm

    My problem is I see no evidence that the soul is immortal. There is however evidence that the soul is destroyed. Now what does "destroy" mean? What does "perish" mean? I'll state again that this issues is not near as clear as I was led to believe growing up in Baptist Churchs. If the lost do not have immortality it would be difficult to believe they "burn in hell" forever. It all goes back to the Tree of Life in Genesis, in my opinion. One must decide what that Tree provided then go from there.

    1. According to those verses in your view, worms must also have immortal bodies.
    2. What happens to something that is thrown into a fire?
    3. Judgment is described in hyperbolic language.


    Is the fire of Jer 17:27 still burning? It says is shall not be quenched.

    Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

    Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning today?

    Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example , suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly ;
     

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