A question about Noah...

Apparently faith is not faith. In Genesis 22, we see God telling Abraham "now I know that you fear God." Apparently the God-fearing faith was not there and was not demonstrated before the sacrifice of Isaac.

Again, this is why the "salvation" of Abraham is clearly shows as a process. Where did he become "saved?" I don't know. Likely at or slightly before Genesis 15.

The passages in Romans and Hebrews do not--and cannot--explain the Genesis text in a way that goes against the text itself, which is what you are suggesting.

The clear and simple fact is that the first mention of righteousness being counted to Abraham is in Genesis 15. There is no way around that.

The issue is not whether he is saved or not. The issue is who is the One calling. God chose Abraham. Period. We are not told why. Any faith that he demonstrated comes after the calling.

You, and your errant brand of pseudo-theology, want to tell us that God chose Abraham because he had faith. You will never find that outside of your own imagination. You are reading your theology into this passage to try to make a point you simply cannot make.

Christians absolutely sin. But that isn't the issue here, is it? The issue is that any faith that Abraham demonstrates is weak at best...until Genesis 22.

Actually, justification is a one-time act. Salvation can be (and usually is) a process.

The counting of righteousness to him, though, was not until Genesis 15.

I'm completely aware of his sin in all the places between Genesis 12 and Genesis 22. I have never stated that Abraham was not saved. I'm saying that you would have us believe that Abraham was a bastion of faith before God called him in Genesis 12. The text won't allow for that. Abraham's faith is, at best, feeble--until the sacrifice of Isaac.

So then, you would have to argue that Paul was saved before the encounter on the Damascus road--something we know is not true.

It is interesting that you won't admit to your error in accusing me of not knowing the scriptures and then stating that Isaac's sacrifice comes before the lie to Abimelech. How terribly small of you. I expected better. It seems I might know Genesis better than you.

The Archangel

 

You know DHK, you need to discontinue your skirmish here and rise to the occasion yourself. I've thoroughly explained my position. Also, I'm not under any peer pressure here to anyone at all. I'm the servant of Christ, not men.

My apologetic is secure, resting upon God's Word, with proper context and not inserting an audience not intended in the passage I gave to you.

Thus I've defended my position, which is the Bibles position here, specifically in the passage I shared with you. You haven't shown this in your misinterpretation of the text at hand.

On the other hand I've not winessed you defend your position whatsoever, except with poor hermeneutical practices that fall short of author intent, context, and intended audience. That is fact.

Also, I'm no student of Augustine, nor of Calvin, as you've accused. This is the typical response from you when on your path against Calvinist theology, and not winning in said campaign, due to a lack of any credible evidence. Instead you're embracing a deficient theology with a plethora of shoddy interpretations. It's erroneous and a false accusation on your part to falsely accuse one of studying anothers theology when you have no basis or proof for such.

 

DHK seems to want to "dish it out", but not "take it to" biblically speaking!

 

Please give a link to said post.

 

It's in this thread, no need to pretend DHK.

 

Abraham was being tested. It wasn't a test of salvation but of faithfulness.
I know when I was saved. I can give you a date. Do you know when you were saved, or are you still thinking about it? Is it a process in your life that you will never be fully sure of, if you will ever attain it--possibly even lose it?

Likely when he obeyed God, when he left his family and God called him out of the land of Ur of the Chaldees, even as your Calvinistic brethren: Jamieson, Faucett and Brown will attest to.

Scripture is in harmony with itself and does not contradict itself. That is what you are making it do.

Not according to the NT account. Furthermore God doesn't lead, guide, and audibly talk with unregenerate individuals.

God chose Abraham.
God chose Noah.
God chose Enoch.
God chose many individuals. The reason: They believed on Him. Enoch walked with God and was not, for God took him. The message is clear. Enoch had a walk with God. He believed and obeyed. And therefore God took him out of that sinful world.

I believe what God says. "Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness." You have a hard time with that statement.

With that logic you would certainly conclude that the Corinthians were unsaved because Paul calls them "carnal" and "babes in Christ." They were weak Christians and therefore unsaved. This is the logic that I get from you. Yes, Abraham had just come out of an idolatrous land. It takes time to grow. He didn't become a spiritual giant overnight. Neither did Moses as is evident when he went out and killed a man when he lost his temper.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Again, you are entitled to your opinion, but I believe you are very wrong here with all the evidence given in Genesis 12, with God speaking to Abraham and leading him.

One doesn't have to be a "bastion of faith" to be saved. Is that what you believe? Abraham had just come out of an idolatrous land. You don't want to cut him any slack at all. Immediately you jump to the conclusion that he is not saved because of one sin in Egypt, when the record shows he committed the same sin eight chapters later! Amazing!

How do you know that. I would not state your opinions as fact.
Paul called Christ Lord on the Damascus road. No Jew could ever call Christ Lord and submit to Him as Lord (which he did) and not be saved at the same time.

You know the Scriptures well enough. My point was: Act or post as if you know the Scriptures. He committed the same sin in two different places. How can the first time be evidence that he is not saved, when he commits the very same act eight chapters later? It is inconsistent.

The order of events was this:
He established his covenant with Abraham that it would be through Isaac in chapter 17.
He went down to Gerar in chapter 20
Isaac was born in chapter 21.
Isaac was "sacrificed" in chapter 22.

 

Everybody knows Hebrews 11 is called "The Hall of Faith" and the persons mentioned are people who had great faith in God. Samson is mentioned in vs. 32, did he live a perfect godly life? David is mentioned, did he live a perfect life after being saved? The obvious answer is no.

Abraham first believed God when he was in Ur, and this is what Heb 11:8-9 speaks of.

I am always amazed that Calvinists interpret scripture exactly opposite of what it truly says. I would bet I have pointed this out dozens of times. This is another example, Heb 11:8-9 is complimenting Abraham's great faith, but Calvinists interpret this as weak faith, even unbelief. Absurd.

 

When would you say from the Biblical text God pronounced that Abraham was now "saved?"

 

I believe the scriptures show Abraham was saved when he obeyed God by faith in Heb 11:8

I am completely aware of Gen 15:6, but this is not necessarily saying that this is when Abraham was first saved, it is simply stating that God counted Abraham's faith as righteousness.

You have to rightly divide the word, you have to consider all the verses speaking of Abraham's faith, and what the scriptures say of those who have faith.

We know Abraham believed God and left Ur from Heb 11:8. The verse directly says this.

We also know that Jesus said those who believe have passed from death to life. It is not a process, the moment you believe, you are saved.

If how you and other Calvinists interpret Abraham's faith is true, then no one can know they are saved.

Either Abraham was saved when he believed in Ur, or you are faced with the problem of believeing a person can have faith and not be saved.

Is that what you believe? Do you believe a person can have faith and not be saved?

Please answer that question.

 

I believe the answer to this question is the answer to a lot of our questions and or highly related there of.

In reality is not what we called saved or salvation really a covenant relationship we have with God the Father through Jesus the Son until the consummation of time/age or in the case of Abraham, between he and God?

Rather than asking or saying when 0r if Abraham is/was saved, in reality wasn't and isn't it really a covenant relationship between God and Abraham that is confirmed in Genesis 22:16-18 By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son]: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

In 1 Thess 4 are not the dead in Christ still in a covenant relationship with the Father yet dead?

 

Just did that!

My question :

what really saved Abraham, credit him before the Lord...

His willing obedience to God, His faith, or the Grace of God?

 

You didn't answer, and now you are painting yourself into a corner. As a Calvinist you believe it is impossible for an unregenerate person to have faith and be willingly obedient to God.

If Abraham was unregenerate, how could he be willingly obedient to God? And how could he have faith? You can't deny he had faith, or that he was obedient, Heb 11:8 says he had faith and obeyed.

And if he was regenerate in Ur and able to be willingly obedient to God, and he had faith, how could he not be righteous and saved?

Please answer these questions.

 

The word you want is "carnal." But God doesn't flip switches. He creates. Create in me a clean heart.

So, it's not whether or not one's heart is right, or has the right desire, it's whether or not one can be manipulated or coerced into doing the right thing. It's what's on the outside that counts.

Oh puh-leeze!

 

And here you go again. Noah was chosen on the basis of his own righteousness. You can't escape it. That is your gospel.

 

I hope that we do not feel ashamed of the Gospel we came to God on, that our Gospel makes us righteous.

The most righteous man I know stood before the Lord God and said I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips.

That our righteousness is dirty rags compared to God. When we compare our self to Jesus Christ we know we fall short of the glory of God.

I am dirt, I am nothing, my only hope for salvation is His word that those who believe(trust) in Him will be saved. I have no hope in my self, but only in Christ and His finished work.

I hope we never focus on us for salvation, but on Christ who will save all that He has been given. Do not doubt but believe. Our faith with deeds and love is alive through Christ who strengthens us.

We don't see us in heaven, but Jesus said where He goes we will be also, what a promise.