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A Question Calvinists must Answer REVISITED

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Mar 6, 2011.

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  1. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    JBH,

    If I took the "notion", I could play eenie, meenie, minie, mo, each morning with the choice of shirts, then, if there be any thing behind the final choice, it would then have to be associated with the "total determinism" espoused by SOME of the reformers.
     
    #61 quantumfaith, Mar 7, 2011
  2. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    could...yes, would...no
    I could have chosen just as I can choose to lie or tell the truth now.

    My username is jjjjjj - that's a lie
    My username is jbh28 - that's the truth

    See, I can do both. So yes, I could have chosen either one just as I can chose either one tomorrow.

    Now, would I have chosen differently? No, that was the choice I made. I chose because that's what I wanted to do based on the circumstances. Unless you believe in random choices, there is a cause for the choice. If the causes don't change, what makes one think the decision would have been any different.
    yes, but it was part of God pre-ordained plan. Don't understand how the two work together....nether do I. How do I make choices, but yet God's preordained plan always works out. Can I change God's plan. No.

    This is where extremes go bad. Hyper Calvinists deny man's responsibly...aka choices. Others deny God's pre-ordination. They both exist. We don't understand how they communicate with each other.
     
    #62 jbh28, Mar 7, 2011
  3. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    And your choice would have been to choose a shirt by playing "eenie, meenie, minie, mo" :)
     
    #63 jbh28, Mar 7, 2011
  4. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    I'm just going off your previous statements. You deny that God imparts any inward grace or convicting power that will enable fallen man to respond to the Gospel. So in your view, the Gospel is diminished to mere information given to the hearer - nothing supernatural is involved - the result is strictly based on man's unfettered LFW. Feel free to correct me where I've mispresented your view.
     
    #64 Andy T., Mar 7, 2011
  5. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    So you agree that those who don't "jump off" are intrinsically better people and are worthy of this "praise."

    You said God is to blame in the Calvinist view. Your contention is the very one Paul answered in Rom. 9.


    No you haven't.

    Sure, if you completely discount Pharaoh and Paul's dichotomy of the children of the flesh who are bastards and the children of the Spirit who are the legitimate offspring of Abraham, jews and gentiles alike.
     
    #65 Aaron, Mar 7, 2011
  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I'm sure you can supply where he (or anyone) has maintained they are "intrinsically better people". We won't hold our breath.
     
    #66 webdog, Mar 8, 2011
  7. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Then you are not understanding my previous statements.

    Some Arminians do believe God imparts some kind of inward grace to give the gospel power, but I don't see that is a necessity because it presumes the work of grace in bringing the gospel is somehow an insufficient work of God's grace. That is simply not supported in the scripture. But, my point is that either way you take this, the model presented in the OP stands.

    No, the gospel itself is the power...it is supernatural...God breathed...inspired..."spirit and life"...the words by which mankind will be judged....the appeal to be reconciled...the power of God unto salvation...sharper than a double edged sword...etc

    So, actually my view of the gospel is just the opposite of "diminished" it is MORE powerful. In Calvinism all the power is in the secret inward work of regeneration (irresistible calling), which is never expounded upon in the scripture. In my view the power is right where the scripture say it is...in the gospel!
     
    #67 Skandelon, Mar 8, 2011
  8. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Is the brother who found himself face down in a pigsty, who had to go back to grovel to his daddy for a slave job considered "intrinsically better?"

    Broken isn't better, its weaker, and God has chosen the weak to shame the wise.

    Actually, the contention is not an Arminian's contention, it is a temporarily hardened Jews contention.

    Which would sound like this: "Why would you use some Jews for "noble purpose" (i.e. Paul) while leaving the rest hardened in their rebellion and used for "common use" all the while showing mercy to dirty unclean Gentiles!?!" That is the contention Paul is answering.
     
    #68 Skandelon, Mar 8, 2011
  9. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    It's the inescapable conclusion of noncalvinism.
     
    #69 Aaron, Mar 8, 2011
  10. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Honestly, I don't know how you think Calvinists avoid the same charge? Whether one is 'better' because God made them irresistibly so, as you believe, or 'better' because God allowed them to freely respond, it doesn't change the fact that one is "better if one presumes believing unto salvation is "better."

    The only real difference is that non-elect people in your system have an excuse for not believing unto salvation, for which they will be judged.
     
    #70 Skandelon, Mar 8, 2011
  11. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Paul didn't use Caiaphas or Judas as an example of one that God had hardened. He used Pharaoh.

    So who are the temporarily hardened jews? It couldn't have been Caiphas or Judas or Gamaliel. It couldn't have been any of the unbelieving jews who died in their sins. Those who are temporarily hardened, as you put it, would have to have been those who eventually believed, like Paul.

    And so we find that Paul is right. God hasn't cast off Israel (according to the flesh). The very fact of his salvation and ministry shows that God has redeemed Israel like He promised. And those jews according to the flesh who die in their sins aren't "temporarily hardened," they never really were of the Israel of God.
     
    #71 Aaron, Mar 8, 2011
  12. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I agree, I don't know how anybody could not be a little prideful to believe they were specially chosen or elected. You may not understand why God chose you, but it would be hard not to think of yourself as "special".

    In fact, one thing I have noticed is that Calvinists and Reformed like to refer to themselves as "the elect", while non-Cals tend to call themselves "saved". Calling yourself "elect" tends to glorify self, calling yourself "saved" tends to glorify your Savior.
     
    #72 Winman, Mar 8, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 8, 2011
  13. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Better than the one who woke up face down in a pigsty and stayed.
     
    #73 Aaron, Mar 8, 2011
  14. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    And even in your system the guy that gets up is "better" than the guy who stayed...just for different reasons.

    The difference is that in your system the guy who stayed has a good excuse for it, while in my system he is truly responsible (response-able).
     
    #74 Skandelon, Mar 8, 2011
  15. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Right, because just as Moses was the foreshadowing figure for Jesus, so too Pharaoh was the foreshadowing figure for Israel.

    Just like Pharaoh was hardened in his already rebellious and unbelieving state to ensure the first passover, so too Israel was hardened in their already rebellious and unbelieving state to ensure the real PASSOVER.
     
    #75 Skandelon, Mar 8, 2011
  16. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Better off, yes, but not a better person.

    Does better, but by God's grace working in him, not because of the mythical "free will."

    You say the one did better because he was better. We say one did better because of God working in him.


    And there you go again with the carnal response that Paul already addressed.
     
    #76 Aaron, Mar 8, 2011
  17. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Who hardened him, and was his hardening "temporary?"
     
    #77 Aaron, Mar 8, 2011
  18. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Well, the bible indicates that he hardened himself in some cases and that God did in others. I don't suspect that Pharaoh wanted to let go his nation's free slave labor, but certainly turning the river to blood, as one example, might convince him to change his mind. God didn't want his mind to change UNTIL the passover so that His Glory would be revealed.

    Well, how long would God need to actively hardened Pharaoh to make him not want to let the slaves go? Until the next plague a least, or until the passover was accomplished at most.
     
    #78 Skandelon, Mar 8, 2011
  19. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    A person who is effectually regenerated by the Spirit to become one whose life is irresistibly marked by the fruits of the spirit, isn't better? By whose definition?

    As if we deny the gracious working of the Spirit, come now, let's not intentionally misrepresent others views.

    Actually we say one did better because God's working in him and the one didn't do better because he resisted the freely offered grace of God.

    And there you go again committing the debate fallacy of question begging, while thinking you are making an actual argument worthy of rebuttal.
     
    #79 Skandelon, Mar 8, 2011
  20. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    God's.

    I'm not misrepresenting anything. Your OP presents two men who were both lifted by the Spirit, but one "jumped off."

    Tell me why one doesn't "jump off" while the other does, if it isn't because he was a better man to begin with.
     
    #80 Aaron, Mar 8, 2011
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