A question concerning, by faith and the faith.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, Apr 30, 2012.

  1. percho

    percho
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    By faith and through the faith, the same or different?
    Why are some justified by faith and others through the faith?

    Gen. 18:9-15 KJV And they said unto him, Where [is] Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent. And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard [it] in the tent door, which [was] behind him. Now Abraham and Sarah [were] old [and] well stricken in age; [and] it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also? And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old. Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son. Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.

    Hebrews 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

    In the Genesis account did Sarah inwardly laugh (mock) at the LORD?

    Was her inward mocking/laughing at the LORD her faith?

    After she had the child did she then esteem the LORD faithful in his promise?

    I want someone to tell me by what faith, did Sarah have a child.

    Why are some justified by faith and others through the faith?

    YLT Gal. 3:23,24 And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith (*) we may be declared righteous,
    25 and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we,

    (*) “by faith,” What faith? The faith, which had not yet come and not yet been revealed.

    Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises,

    They died in the by faith, which had yet to come and be revealed. To Abraham and his seed were the promises made and that seed is Christ.

    They could not inherit the promises, till the seed might come to which the promise hath been made. Jesus Christ is the seed of obedience of faith unto death even the death of the cross. The faith.

    That seed is the faith by which they and we can be given the inheritance.

    Now that the faith has come we are justified (imputed with the righteousness of God) through the faith of Jesus and when we die we not said to have died in faith, we are dead in Christ awaiting his appearing and our inheritance.

    By receiving the Spirit from the hearing of faith, that is the faith, we by that Spirit put in Christ and Christ is put in us, therefore, Verse 26 We are all sons of God through the faith, in Christ Jesus,
     
    #1 percho, Apr 30, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2012
  2. Iconoclast

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    We are saved by or through faith......never,never ...because of faith.

    Faith is an instumentality to get us to God. We do not have it inherently. Saving faith is the gift of God.:thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  3. convicted1

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    :applause::applause:
     
  4. kyredneck

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    So what's up Willis, you switching to DoG?
     
  5. convicted1

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    Nope. But I do believe that faith is a gift of God.
     
  6. percho

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    Which would you agree with?
    A. By grace are you saved through faith.
    B. By grace are you saved through the faith.

    What is the conduit by which the gift of faith is given from God?
     
  7. Iconoclast

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    A. through Faith.......

    The Function of Saving Faith. Faith is instrumental, not causative, in our
    salvation. In other words, we are not saved “because of faith,” but rather
    “through” or “by” faith (Eph. 2:8–10). This is a critical matter. This is, indeed,
    the watershed between salvation by grace and salvation by works [innate
    human ability]. To be saved because of faith would necessarily mean that
    such faith would be mere human trust, which would stand opposed to the very
    principle and reality of Divine grace
     
  8. kyredneck

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    I'll defer to Pink who is quoted in this excerpt from 'Immediate, Holy Spirit Regeneration' By Zack Guess:

    ".... the Holy Spirit is the sole agent in regeneration. Here it will be good to quote Arthur w. Pink in his book, The Holy Spirit, pp. 56,57:

    In His work of "quickening," by which we mean the impartation of spiritual life to the soul, the Spirit acts immediately from within, and not by applying something from without. Quickening is a direct operation of the Spirit without the use of any instrument: the Word is used by Him afterwards to call into exercise the life then communicated…The soul, then, is quickened into newness of life by the direct and supernatural operation of the Spirit, without any medium or means whatever…No, men are not "quickened" by the Word, they must be quickened in order to receive and understand the Word.

    Pink says on page forty-nine of the same book:

    In regeneration one of God’s elect is the subject, and the Spirit of God is the sole agent. The subject of the new birth is wholly passive: he does not act but is acted upon. The sovereign work of the Spirit in the soul precedes all holy exercises of heart- such as sorrow for sin, faith in Christ, love toward God… This great change is not a gradual and protracted process, but is instantaneous: in an instant of time the favored subject of it passes from death unto life.

    Note: A number of Sovereign Grace groups agree with what we Primitive Baptists teach on the so-called Five Points, but very few agree with us on the doctrine of Immediate Regeneration. There are some, notably the Protestant Reformed denomination, W. G. T. Shedd, a Congregationalist, A. W. Pink, W. E. Best, and a few others. Some theologians seem to talk out of both sides of their mouths. In some places in their theology books they seem to teach Immediate Regeneration while in other places they plainly teach Gospel Regeneration."
     
  9. percho

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    So let me ask, What is the purpose for the article, "the," in passages where it is definitely found such as Gal. 3:14 which should read, "through the faith," and many others where it is left out by KJV translators.

    When I asked the A or B question I actually had Eph. 2:8 in mind where TR has the article and GNT doesn't. However I would say the weight of evidence from other passages would suggest TR to be correct.
     
  10. percho

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    I can live with the above more or less.

    Why do we receive the Spirit that quickens? From Whom does the Spirit proceed into the elect to quicken them?
     
  11. percho

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    I really do need to shorten up the thought. Maybe that is to shorten down.

    As long as, let's say one of the priest, maybe Zacharias, the father of John the Baptist was under the law, could he be justified/made righteous, by the works of the law?


    What is the difference between by faith and through the faith?
     
  12. Yeshua1

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    the Cross of Christ is the very basis by which God is able to freely able to satsify his attributes of both holiness and love, while faith is the way that he had ordained that Grace can be accessed by us...

    the Cross saves us, faith allows that saving grace to be applied towards us!
     
  13. Allan

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    what and who are you quoting?
    .. and why the addition to it, since the use of [brackets] typically mean you have placed something there that was not originally there to begin with?

    Lastly, scripture defines 'works' as something you 'do' (Rom 4:3-??) not as something you have innately (or not). However I do agree with you when speaking of 'faith' regarding instrumentality.
    I have never read in scripture we are - saved by faith through grace - but that we are 'saved by grace through faith...'.
     
    #13 Allan, May 3, 2012
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  14. Yeshua1

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    Grace is ALWAYS listed as the basis/grounds of one being saved by god, faith way to access that grace from/by God!
     
  15. Allan

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    I agree, are you agreeing with me though?
     
  16. percho

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    we are 'saved by grace through faith

    That is what it says alright.-----However I have a few questions.

    YLT Eph 2:8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through [the] faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift, (I believe this means the salvation is the gift, eternal life.)

    I bracketed [the] because I inserted it there and I understand Robert Young used the TR text and [the] appears to me who knows no Greek to be there.

    TR Eph 2:8 τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον

    KJV Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Is it safe for me to assume that the gift in Romans 6:23 is the same gift in Eph. 2:8 that is, salvation, eternal life? And I guess I can also assume that God in both passages is God the Father?

    KJV 1 Peter 1:3,4 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you.

    Would not eternal life by definition have to be incorruptible, therefore the eternal life which is the gift of God in Romans 6:23 through Jesus Christ our Lord is available to us because of of by the resurrection of Jesus Christ? Wasn't Jesus himself resurrected no more to return to corruption? Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, [now] no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

    Eternal life, eternal salvation came by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Hebrews 5:5,9 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    Salvation, eternal life, the gift of God the Father is the Grace of God the Father. Who was the recipient of that Grace?

    Well there has been only one to my knowledge. By grace through [the] faith of Who?

    Eph 2:8 isn't about what is done by you and to you so you can have salvation, eternal life.

    Eph 2:8 is about what was done by Jesus Christ and what was given to Jesus Christ by God the Father that makes the gift of God, eternal life, salvation available for you.

    We will receive it at the appearing of Jesus.

    1 Peter 1:4,5 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


    It will not be our faith or our works, it will be the Gift of God the Father through Jesus Christ our Lord.
     
    #16 percho, May 5, 2012
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