A question for a Calvinist

People often object when I say that some of you don't understand Calvinism, but you guys continually illustrate this as Allan does here. This, Allan, is a fundamental misunderstanding of total depravity.

TD does not say that man is as bad as he could be, that all men are equally bad, or that man can do no civic good. The word "total" means that his depravity applies to every area of his being ... mind, will, and emotions. This is historically what has been meant by "total depravity." So totally depraved people can do civic good.

Also, I haven't read all this, but you sound at times like a Pelagian or semi-Pelagian, and at times like an Arminian. Arminians believe in total depravity that is universally answered by prevenient grace. Pelagians deny total depravity and thus say that prevenient grace is not needed. Calvinists believe in total depravity that is answered for the elect by special grace (not prevenient).

 

Here is Ryrie from his "Basic Theology" on TD:

Or "Moody Handbook of Theology on Original Sin and Total Depravity:

So Far I am still in consistant agreement with them all.

 

Actaully no it isn't. I was having a little fun with a play both on the word (Total) that I was accused of not understaning and the doctrine quoted/spoke of/refered back to most often to some work of some Reformer or Reformed Creed/Confession

Since I was told that 'total' means 'total' I had some fun.

I know quite well what Calvinist believe and that their view of 'Total' as in Total Depravity is summed up in J.I. Packers "Concise Theology"

See .

We all know this, and James and I have been down this road enough that He knows I was being purposefully silly which is why I 'assume' he didn't comment on it.

If you took personal offence, my appologies.

Then I would suggest you actaully read because in no place do I ever sound like a Pelagian (a person can know and come to God without any assistance or divine aide) or Semi-Pel (that a man can know and come toward God without any assistance or divine aide BUT he realizes in coming toward God that he can not save himself and so God rewards his efforts with grace that he might be saved) - though Arminian I might be able to understand at least.

 

AHHHHH, but that was not all He said in John, He also said

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

John 6:65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

John 10:14-15 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

John 13:18 "I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'

John 15:19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

John 17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.

John 17:19 "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

 

Allan,

The problem is...You make statements like you just quoted, then sometimes in the very same post you make statements like this...""People do have the ability to believe or reject". Its hard to tell what you really believe on this.

On post 113 of this thread you said...."They are capable of believing"....when asked this.."what is an unregenerate lost person capable of doing" Thats not TD Allan.

In the same post (113) you said..."The only way man will come is if God reveals truth to him (has heard), and believes it (hath learned from the Father). One can only learn what one is willing to receive. Thus only those who are drawn and believe come to Christ." See where you said.."Willing to receive" Williing to receive....is mans will. That's not TD Allan.

 

With this you are denying man's responsibility. You are saying man has no responsibility. This is not true. Man is responsible for his actions, whether you like it or not.

 

You are absolutely right Goldie; Total depravity isn't backed up in scripture at all. However man still does not come to God on his own. He is drawn by God and just because a man is drawn doesn't mean he has been given to God yet. Sheep are already God's. We are not born sheep. We become sheep when we follow Christ.
MB

 

I am not denying man's responsibility in the least. I fully and unequivocally affirm man's full responsibility to live in obedience to God in every single area of life. I like the fact that man is responsible for his actions. And you are responsible for not understanding what I am saying, so please take responsibility and fix it.