A Question for Arminians (or no-name theology believers)

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by glfredrick, Mar 23, 2011.

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  1. glfredrick

    glfredrick
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    Of late, there have been any number of questions for the Calvinists on the board, so I figured it was time to return the favor. This is not out of spite or an angry heart, but the question I will pose below I believe will prove difficult for those with an Arminian (or other non-named free will perspective).

    So, here goes...

    The question concerns the limits or unlimited atonement. I believe it is safe to say that Arminians and others holding some form of free will as a part of their doctrine area also in the camp of unlimited atonement. Christ died for all men (all people) in all ages, and all may freely come to Him in belief seeking salvation.

    The proposition below is based on the doctrinal statement above.

    (I will allow the statement above to be amended so that it is satisfactory to the camps described directly above. I wish to very accurately portray whom it is that I speak.)

    Proposition:

    A. Christ died for all people -- and His death was for all sin (all means all)

    B. Unbelief is a sin against God -- according to the "all men/all sin" aspect of Christ's atonement, unbelief should be one of the sins Christ died for

    D. Yet, Unbelievers are not saved and believers are saved

    -- Therefore --
    E-1. Either Christ did not die for all people and cover all sins​
    E-2. Or Christ did die for all people but not for all sins​
    E-3. Or Christ did die for all people and all sins​

    E-1 is the position of the Reformed (Calvinistic) theology, and holds that the atonement is limited and effectually applied only for the elect.

    E-2 is the Amyraldian perspective which states that Christ died for all, but the "effects" of the atonement are for the elect only.

    E-3 is the Arminian perspective, which states that Christ did indeed die for all men and all sins.

    Starting with E-3, the problem is that unbelief is a sin, so how is it, that Christ died for all sin in all people, yet unbelief remains? It would seem that some form of special pleading is required to satisfy this solution to the proposition above. The alternative is universalism (per Rob Bell and others) in that a loving God who died for all people would never leave those people to eventually be damned in their sin. This position seems untenable.

    E-2 is plausible, save that there is no biblical context to prove it, and also that no true free-will or Arminian individual will generally claim any form of limited atonement.

    That leaves E-3, which states simply, that Christ died for the elect. which takes into account the scriptures and the fact that not all people are believers.

    Note that in a discussion of this nature no ONE verse of Scripture will be adequate to explain the concept of the atonement, election, and the effects or results of either. This discussion must take into account the entire text of the Word of God, beginning to end, as I laid out in another discussion as being the only standard for a true theology of God.
     
  2. Crabtownboy

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    I believe you need an E-4 and that being, Christ died for all sins of all people who, using their freewill, repent and ask to be forgiven.

    We all sin, but our sins can only be forgiven if we ask that they be forgiven.
     
  3. glfredrick

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    That is covered under E-3, hence the dilemma.
     
  4. convicted1

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    Go back to Exodus and read where Moses(type of Jesus), who by the hand of God, delivered the Isrealites out of Egypt. To the best of my knowledge, none of them were left behind by Moses. When they made sacrifices in the wilderness, the atonement was made for all of Israel, but you read that when they rebelled, those who rebelled died. Even though they rebelled, that sacrifice was made for ALL of Israel. So, God delivered all out of Egypt, but only those who chose to follow Moses got there.

    This is the same as what Jesus did. When He died, He condemned sin in the flesh, tasting death for all men. Now those who choose to follow Jesus, will make it to Heaven(promised land), and those who don't, will die and be lost eternally. Jesus paid for their sins, they just chose not to accept the gift. The atonement was for them, too, IOW. But they rebel against God when they do not heed to His call.

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  5. Crabtownboy

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    Hmmmmmmm, I do not see it as a dilemma. It seems pretty straight forward to me.

    Also, E-4 did not say all sins, but all sins that sinners ask be forgiven. If forgiveness is not ask for then those sins are not covered.

    An analogy from a former friend and workmate. He said he always gave his father a gift at Christmas. When his father died he found all the gifts he had given him in a drawer, all were unopened. So, in a real sense the father never accepted any gift his son gave him. So, if a person does not ask to be forgiven, he cannot be forgiven.

     
  6. glfredrick

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    Not sure how this helps you... Did Christ die for all sins or just some sins? If "some sins" how does that make your position materially different from E-1?

    You are also inserting the "special pleading" aspect that I mentioned above. Only "sinners that sinners ask God to forgive" (which opens another can of worms) are forgiven. How do people even know that they are sinners until God makes that clear in their life? Is it not His conviction that leads one to believe that know that they are indeed a sinner? That, then, means that the E-1 perspective is the true proposition.
     
  7. Grasshopper

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    I would say that propitiation is even a bigger problem:

    He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.




    *
    Propitiation \Pro*pi`ti*a"tion\, n. [L. propitiatio: cf. F. propitiation.]

    1. The act of appeasing the wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making propitious.

    2. (Theol.) That which propitiates; atonement or atoning sacrifice; specifically, the influence or effects of the death of Christ in appeasing the divine justice, and conciliating the divine favor.

    He [Jesus Christ] is the propitiation for our sins. --1 John ii. 2.

    Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
    *
     
  8. webdog

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    E-5 Christ's death appeased God's wrath against sin, faith in Christ appeases God's wrath against sinners

    (just noticed Grasshopper posted this at the same time)
     
  9. glfredrick

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    Who entered the Promised Land? I suggest that NONE of those following Moses did so. It was the elect of God, that actually entered, and in that case, God's judgment extended to all the persons alive, including Moses, at the time of His judgment. He spared the offspring, a new generation and the two faithful spies, Joshua and Caleb. None other entered or had the chance to enter based on any action that they did or did not do.
     
  10. glfredrick

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    For whom? You end up with one of the choices above.
     
  11. Aaron

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    So, it's our works of faith that make up half the work of atonement!
     
  12. JesusFan

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    where would the position that teaches that Jesus death/atonment made it possible that all men could be saved but that only the elect get its benefits?
    Would that be E-2 for me, that Death of Christ atoned for all potentially, made it possible they could be saved but that only elected people by God receive its full benefit...

    Can one hold thast Christ death did atone for all sins, but that only those God chooses by His election to saints allows them to receive its full benefits?

    So that its possible to hold from the Bible that it is Gods will that none should perish, death provided for payment of sins of whole world, but that ONLY those elected by God unto eternal life actually receive the full befefit of Chrsit death.atonment?

    I am not armenian, as believe that God is the One who elects us unto salvation, not due to "seeing" us having faith in Christ, but because of his soverign choosing of us based upon his own mercy and grace
     
    #12 JesusFan, Mar 23, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2011
  13. glfredrick

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    Still does not answer the proposition above. TO WHOM? All? Some?

    You keep going astray from the actual proposition in your attempt to circumvent with cleaver alternatives, but you are not even dealing with the real issue in the OP.
     
  14. webdog

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    I thought I encompassed all when I stated "sin". You laid out a false dichotomy to which I replied what I deem to be another viable alternative.
     
  15. webdog

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    What an asinine conclusion to what was stated. Next...
     
  16. glfredrick

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    Propitiating is not a bigger problem. It is tied up within the doctrine of atonement. How one describes propitiation is an issue on the board, but not here. The question is all sins, all people, or some sins some people.
     
  17. glfredrick

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    I would say that you are E-2 in my proposition. That is not an Arminian (note the spelling, Armenian is a people group, Arminian is a theology) but rather Amyraldian or also sometimes called 4-point Calvinism or other names. I'm using the E-X system here because I don't really want to get bogged down with labels, as people often suggest that they cannot be "this" or "that" while in fact holding to exactly that theological position.
     
  18. glfredrick

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    No, you simply by-passed the entire proposition and offered a cute answer that you made up.

    I'll ask again... All sin and all people, or some sin and some people, or some combination, such as all sin, but some people. There really is no other choice.

    Inventing another category does not grok...
     
  19. webdog

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    I didn't make anything up, it's found in Scripture.
    All sin, all time, all people, all universes...better?
    Not sure what a grok is, but like I said, I invented nothing.
     
  20. Skandelon

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    already covered...never mind
     
    #20 Skandelon, Mar 23, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2011
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