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a question for arminians

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by massdak, Jul 25, 2004.

  1. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    LOL! I hope you're not referring to me. I'm just challenging Bob to support his statement. He claimed in support of "free will" that 1/3 of the angels chose of their own "free will" to rebel. Well, if he's going to use that as part of his "proof", I want to see the scripture that backs it up. If there's no scripture to back it up, then he needs to admit that it's only his opinion, and therefore it doesn't belong in a "proof".

    Here's the original claim he made:

    If there's a connection there -- between what the angels did and what Arminians believe -- then I want to see the scripture that proves that free will is responsible for what the angels did.
     
  2. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    I would also like to see scripture supporting the fall of "Satan" and "demons".

    I have read revelations and many commentaries concerning one quote.

    Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


    nastrodamus could come up with that interpretation.

    These scriptures could quite easily point towards reprobate followers who once held the truth but changed it to a lie.

    are there any corroborating scriptures pointing towards the "free will", "in opposition to the will of God" choices made by satan or his demons?.
    are these "evil" creatures made evil to begin with by God, or were they made evil by their own independent voilition choice to oppose Gods will.

    Me2
     
  3. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    If there are, I'd like to see them. That's a serious challenge, not a smart-aleck remark. I don't know EVERY verse of the Bible, so just because I'm not aware of any that would support that satan has free will doesn't mean there isn't one. I think I would have noticed, though, if I'd come across such a verse.

    Satan often has a will contrary to the will of God, but there are also scriptures which demonstrate that satan cannot act out his opposing will without the express permission of God.

    Some scriptures even portray satan as someone who is simply designed to do a certain type of job. In one case, God sends Paul a "messenger of satan" to afflict him to keep him humble. In another case, someone is "handed over to satan to be taught not to blaspheme". Satan asked Jesus if he could sift Peter as wheat - as if to say, "hey, that sounds like it's part of my job description, can I do it, huh? Huh?" God clearly used satan's challenge regarding Job to teach everyone who's really the boss around here. And there is no doubt that satan could only do to Job what God permitted -- no more, no less. God was in total control of the situation.
     
  4. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    This is a weak link in the unfolding of the arminian battle of free will. "whereas satan and his angels made a free will choice and fell", becoming enemies of God.
    Well, religious man can make that very same arguement. possessing "free will" and opposing God, even to refuse HIS will...

    God clearly tells us that Satan was made from the beginning against the truth....

    Joh 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    abode not in the truth.. (unrighteousness)
    (has always existed in a state of unrighteousness)
    a murderer from the beginning
    a liar from the beginning

    one would think that sin would have entered into creation at the so called "fall" of satan (and "his" demons)?

    but alas no mention of this in genesis but then theres that "gap" theory [​IMG] ).
    (another heretical jab at Gods sovereignty ?)
     
  5. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    That surely makes it look like satan was created the way he is today. There is a passage - in Ezekiel, I think - that is often interpreted to describe the fall of satan from being the best among the angels. If I had the time, I'd look it up to see if it really does refer to satan or not.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Ya think?

    Anybody you know making such a wild case? Is that really "viable"??

    Nope?

    Anybody you know making such a wild case? Is that really "viable"??

    Nope?


    ooooh! That would be the sneaky thing to do! Hadn't thought of that one.

    Anybody promoting the "Sneaky-devious" model??

    I guess if you ignore the obvious one at the top - the ONLY one anybody promotes -- the ONLY one that is based on scripture --

    then yea - "the wild imagination in escape of the only viable option" is all that is left.

    I agree 100%.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Indeed the model seems to be -- either vote for free will for those angels - or vote for some devious act of God in "making them do it".

    The obvious choice is left "As an exercise for the reader".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    That surely makes it look like satan was created the way he is today. There is a passage - in Ezekiel, I think - that is often interpreted to describe the fall of satan from being the best among the angels. If I had the time, I'd look it up to see if it really does refer to satan or not. </font>[/QUOTE]I "guess" if we ignore the rest of scripture I might "guess" what you have guessed.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    If it is based in scripture, then why don't you quote the scripture that angels rebelled of their free will?

    It wouldn't be an exercise if you could simply supply us with the scripture where you find this conclusion.
     
  10. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    I agree that satan was in the garden of eden, yet he was created as a serpent. a subtle beast with a beastly nature and a beastly understanding.

    not an annointed angelic nature nor with perfect understanding.

    Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

    Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

    lets see..satan, serpent, subtil beast..made by the lord.. huh??!!

    and remember the previous comments.. murderer,liar, not abiding in truth, from the beginning

    now what about that annointed angel stuff???
    didnt he fall from some high platitude????

    wrong religion I guess.

    If one were to actually read a few verses (eze 28:12-15) previously to that which was posted and find out the prophecies are being spoken to men???

    (I thought satan was a serpent..oh well)

    Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart [is] lifted up, and thou hast said, I [am] a God, I sit [in] the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou [art] a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

    the ezekial prophecies were about the carnal spirit of man which was in the king of Tyrus..

    nice try though. many have used it to explain away the annointed cherub dribble of satans prefall status before God that man invented

    you base a religion on a false doctrine and you end up with a lot of confusion

    this is a reason why people dont believe in Jesus. their spouted at by people who make up imaginary stories about God!!.

    Who can one trust to receive the simple truth these days?

    Me2
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Nick - you provide a few wild alternatives that you admit "nobody accepts" and claim that "These" are what makes it so confusing.

    In fact your list only "proves" that there is one and only one answer and it is the first one - free will in a perfect sinless creation.

    Your attempts to make those other silly options "appear" confusing fails outright since no one actually takes them as viable serious "real" alternatives.

    This is the easy part. I am still looking for the hard part.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. He is Lucifer the covering cherup -- perfect in all his ways until iniquity is found in him.

    The serpent in the garden was "Real" and Satan really used the serpent to do his bidding. And serpents today "really" crawl on the ground.

    Lucifer had already fallen by the time he took on the role of tempting mankind.

    (believe it or not - tempting mankind is not a legitimate function of sinless angels).

    This means that war in heaven, taking 1/3 of the angels - losing the war, being cast out and then coming to tempt mankind ALL happen AFTER "iniquity is found in him" -- all happen AFTER he was "Created perfect and sinless, full of wisdom"

    Rev 12 -- "yes" He really took 1/3 of the angels with him in the war in heaven. (And no - they were not following a snake around).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I won't ask you again to back up your claim that 1/3 of the angels fell of their own free will with scripture. Obviously you cannot, and you're too proud to admit it.
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    So far you have provided no other alternatives.

    So it is far simpler than you claim.

    And it is just as obvious that those sinless beings in Job 1 and 2 are evaluating "testing" and "proving" the claims being made - you know "free will beings investigating and being convinced by compelling evidence".

    The same as we see with the Myriads in Daniel seven where the books are opened and judgment is passed based on the data found there.

    It just isn't as hard as you seem to hope it might be - and for all your efforts you provide no other "believable" alternative not even for Calvinists. You admit that none of the alternatives you think of are accepted -- by anyone.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Oh, grow up, Bob. I'm not the one who made the claim about the state of the angels. If I claimed today that it's obvious that angels all look like Dean Martin and you asked for scripture to back it up, I would either provide scripture to back it up or admit it was just my personal idea of what's true. I wouldn't turn it around and say, "Well either you show me from scripture that they DON'T look like Dean Martin, or else it's obvious they do."

    I'm done - I'm tired of debating with someone who uses the tactics of a 5 year old. "I could show you the scripture but I just don't wanna." Criminy.
     
  16. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    npeterley,

    a little insight into the descent of the stars of heaven in revelations.

    lets see. woman giving birth. israel giving birth to the savior. head AND body. manchild. the elect. devil..well thats the serpent of old. and the stars of heaven is false prophets.

    stars of heaven are those illegally takinig the name light bearers. or light of the morning star. or son of the morning which interestingly is given to lucifer in isa 14:12. the title is taken in this instance wrongfully or illegally.

    it is taken wrongfully for we see the title given to the overcomers in rev 2:28 rightfully.

    satan is collecting or being identified with the false stars of the morning. (carnal spirit of man) the false light bearers. the false ministers of light.

    2Co 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
    2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
    2Co 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    taking the title of light bearer falsely. instead of it being given to overcomers rightfully.
    (rev 22:16)

    what is the true light of the bearer. it is the seven spirits also found in revelation (rev 4:5)

    spirit of the lord
    spirit of wisdom
    spirit of understanding
    spirit of counsel
    spirit of might
    spirit of knowledge
    spirit of the fear of the lord

    which every true light bearer has driving them into the image of Christ. purging them of their old nature of darkness. exposing the darkness around them. proclaiming the truth from within themselves. proclaiming the righteousness of the spirit of Christ dwelling from within.

    of which the false light bearers of satan do not possess. they only have carnal law and carnal understanding. wether it be of imagination, lie or misinterpretation of Gods bible written to the elect.

    all of which brings us to the thread. why do some not believe in Christ?.
    for it is not the message heralded by the false light bearers. but it is from the imparting of the true spirit within. man can only believe when they receive the spirit freely given of the father instead of making a mental descision to understand a verbal carnal message spoken by false light bearers.

    Me2
     
  17. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    First, let me just say I am appalled. You don't believe all angels look like DEAN MARTIN!?! I thought that was a given. ;)

    Second, Bob, I would like to welcome you to the large and growing group of outcasts in Nick's wake of Calvinistic fervor and outrage. I'm thinking of starting a support group. [​IMG]

    Just discuss issues with Ian, Southern, or just about any other Calvinist on this board and you shouldn't have any real problem. Nick apparently has "issues."
     
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