a question for biblicist

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by massdak, Sep 19, 2004.

  1. massdak

    massdak
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    i have a question regarding people that do not believe that once they are saved that they have eternal security unless they maintain a certain sinless life. these people that do not believe in osas are they born again? what is your opinion regarding their salvation?
     
  2. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony
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    That one does not understand or even believe in eternal security does not determine whether they are born again. When one is born again their belief in eternal security is not the issue. Saying this I do think it is very sad for any Christian to spend their life without the security of their eternal salvation.

    Bro Tony
     
  3. Trotter

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    Amen, Tony.

    There have been many dark times in my life when I was estranged from God, and the hope of eternal salvation sustained me through them.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  4. Helen

    Helen
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    Good times or bad times, if one does not know one is safe with Christ forever, one will be focusing on oneself instead of others.

    It is ONLY when you know you can rest with Christ, as He promised, that you can finally pay attention to the two commands: love God and love your neighbor.

    When you know God is caring for you, you can pay attention to others. If you are always worried about yourself, then 'you' are what you will pay attention to.

    God has not left us in that position. He is faithful to complete the good work He began in us (Phil 1:6). Those predestination verses that Calvinists like so much are verses which say that those who believe are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. "No child of God is left behind." They do not say that certain people are predestined to be believers.
     
  5. Deborah B.

    Deborah B.
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    I have a question too on this matter about once saved always saved.

    Hypothetically speaking, if there was a child molester who wanted to turn away from his evil and started attending church, studying the word of God faithfully, ends up joining the church and being baptized. All is going well until two or three years down the road he molests again. He asks God for forgiveness. Then a little while later he does it again, he just can't help himself. But this man loves God. Why can't he stop? He asks for forgiveness and prays constantly about it. Then he does it again, and again, and again. And though at first he struggled with it, he ended up not being able to stop his perversion and stopped going to church and started drinking, only praying occasionally, etc. If this person died the next day is he eternally secure just because a few years before he was saved????? Someone please explain that to me.

    36)"For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37)For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry. 38)Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."
    Hebrews 10:36-38

    Because of Christ,
    Deborah
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Amen, Brother Tony -- Preach it! [​IMG]
     
  7. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother Trotter - Preach it! [​IMG]
     
  8. Helen

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    Deborah, is that a what-if story or something that really happened?
     
  9. Deborah B.

    Deborah B.
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    Hi Helen

    Strictly hypothetical what if. I do not personally know anyone like that, but I know they exist. :( I am just using that scenerio to see what others have to say if someone like that is eternally secure even though they continue to sin. I just used an extreme example. A more common example would be those addicted to porn or internet porn.

    Because of Christ,
    Debbie
     
  10. Craigbythesea

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    There are two basic views regarding eternal security.

    1. Historical Conditional Security. According to this view, one’s salvation is dependent upon their continuing in the faith. This view is the majority view, and has nothing at all to do with the various doctrines of sinless perfection. There are, however, many variations to the historical view, most of which are actually modern views.

    2. Once Saved, Always Saved. According to this view, one’s salvation is dependent only upon at one time or another being “saved.” This view is of comparatively recent origin, and is a minority view. There are many variations of this view.

    If belief in OSAS is necessary for salvation, no one was saved for the first 1500 years after Jesus died. If that is the case, Jesus was an exceptionally poor teacher, his Apostles dummies, and the Bible was so very poorly worded that it took the Church 1500 years to figure out the doctrine of salvation.
     
  11. Craigbythesea

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    But of course, those who believe in the historical doctrine of conditional security know for a fact that they are saved and that no one can take that away from them. They also have the huge advantage of knowing that the Bible was not so poorly worded that no one was able to understand it for 1500 years.
     
  12. Craigbythesea

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    Those who believe in the historical doctrine of condition security know better than to allow Satan to drag them down into dark times. My faith has always been in Christ and what He did for me on the cross rather than in a 16th century doctrine.
     
  13. Craigbythesea

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    These thoughts are excellent examples of some of the more common misconceptions about the historical doctrine of conditional security.

    Those who believe in the historical doctrine of conditional security know that they are safe in Christ and they have an unspeakable joy, a fantastic love for God, and a passionate love in their heart for those who are lost. All of these characteristics were manifest during the early days of the Church when very many Christians joyfully yielded their very lives in martyrdom, and of course these Christians all believed in the historical doctrine of conditional security because the doctrine of OSAS did not evolve for more than a millennium after they were martyred.
     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    What about rescendi? By the way, this question
    was the top religious question of the
    early (301-320) 4th century (301-4000).
    As we know, we get saved BY JESUS when we
    confess that "Jesus is Lord" and believe that
    God raised Him from the dead. When persucution
    comes and a person says "Jesus is not
    my Lord" they become rescendi.
    Were rescendi ever saved in the first place?
    Are rescendi once saved now lost?
    Can rescendi be saved again?
    These questions were biggies in the
    early 4th century - actual cases.

    Interesting story: the history of the
    rise of Emperor Constintaine who united
    the Church and the Roman Empire - the history
    of the church was written by the rescendi.
    The 10th and last persecution of the church
    in the early 4th century was so sever that
    the history was written by the rescendi.
     
  15. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    massdak:

    I think the question is best settled by understanding that God is a merciful God who keeps His word, and who will not let the sacrifice of His Son be for naught, and not because one made a profession of faith at a certain point of his life and looks back to that profession of faith as his source of consolation.

    The child of God is preserved in Christ , says Jude 1. Everything that he is, he is by the grace of God. Everything he looks forward to and hopes for has been secured for him by Christ.

    If one cannot put His trust on the character, fidelity, integrity and trustworthiness of God as his Savior, then not all the professions of faith he can utter matters.

    DeborahB:

    I would say that at those points in his life you described about your hypothetical 'Christian' that he was never born again, because the Bible clearly teaches that the born again child of God will bring forth fruit, and some characteristics of his Father.

    But, I will not say he can never be born again or never was saved, because his salvation depends on the will of God, and his regeneration can happen at anytime, even at point of physical death.

    We can only judge by what we see and know.
     
  16. Craigbythesea

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    Ed,

    I am sorry, but this statement in entirely fictitious. There is no evidence that the historical doctrine of conditional security was questioned by anyone during the 4th century.
     
  17. Craigbythesea

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    Ed,

    I addressed your post a little too quickly. Please forgive me. I should have written that although the doctrine of conditional security was not questioned in the 4th century, there were arguments as to the conditions upon which a person could lose his salvation. During the 4th century, some argued that one could lose their salvation for recanting their faith in Christ, other argued that one could lose their salvation for adultery, others argued that one could lose their salvation for other severe breaches of their faith, but everyone agreed that total apostasy from the faith was not only a possibility, but a historical fact. This teaching was not questioned until the 5th century, and then only briefly and not again for more than 1,000 years.

    Part of the confusion today is the consequence of the false teaching that salvation is only from the consequences of sin, and not from the power of sin. And of course there is also the false teaching that salvation is salvation from sin and those who do sin are not saved from eternal damnation. Unfortunately, there are also many other theories of salvation, some of which are being argued in other threads on this message board.

    Each verse in the Bible that has a bearing on the doctrine of salvation needs to be very carefully studied, both exegetically and historically, with much prayer for help from the Holy Spirit in discerning the truth.

    As for individual, specific cases, we need to be very careful to guard against wrongly judging others.

    1. Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
    2. all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
    3. all ate the same spiritual food,
    4. and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
    5. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
    6. Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.
    7. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.''
    8. Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;
    9. nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents;
    10. nor murmur, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
    11. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come.
    12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
    (1 Cor. 10:1-12, NKJV)
     
  18. Daniel David

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    Assurance is a necessary component of saving faith. When you read what Paul said about Abraham's faith (the kind that justifies), you will see that it does not waver, ever.
     
  19. Craigbythesea

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    If you are right ( :D ), heaven will be a dark and lonely place.
     
  20. Daniel David

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    Nope, just the truly saved. Those who pervert the gospel will only hear Matthew 7.
     

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