A Question for Calvinist here

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by steaver, Dec 17, 2014.

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  1. steaver

    steaver
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    Brother Icon declares that one cannot become a Calvinist unless God allows them to believe the doctrine.....

    ....he bases this belief on Matt 13. You can see his argument here....... http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2173157#post2173157

    My question is, is this what all Calvinist believe? Please answer pertaining directly to the OP, in other words, please do not tweek or rewrite the OP and then answer something different.

    Brother Icon says his position is within the camp of Calvinism.
     
  2. kyredneck

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    I believe it's a gift to know these things, to be able to grow beyond entry level synergism. But at the same time I've known some very happy synergists!
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    steaver
    :thumbs:

    This was only a sample S. I will now offer you some more....

    yes ...;lets look again;

    Is it God who opens understanding and enables sinners to welcome truth?

    Hmmm,,,,,

    15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

    16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    truth revealed by God from heaven to Peter on earth: applause:

    25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

    26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

    27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

    32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?


    let's see if the evil psalmist also believed such things???? from psalm 119-
    5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!

    What...does this man want to be a Puppet?

    18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

    Is he praying.....for Divine enablement??? was the psalmist a Calvinist?


    oh no...not again
    26 I have declared my ways, and thou heardest me: teach me thy statutes.

    27 Make me to understand the way of thy precepts: so shall I talk of thy wondrous works.

    It is in almost every verse...look S-

    32 I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart.
    33 Teach me, O Lord, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.

    34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.

    35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.

    36 Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness

    133 Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me.

    Maybe Paul was a Calvinist....look S-

    13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

    14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.


    or this?

    7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
     
  4. convicted1

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    Steaver is infatuated with you Brother Iconoclast...


    Maybe you should send him an autographed photo...LOL


    I kid, I kid....
     
  5. Iconoclast

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    Yes Con 1...he is in danger of idolatry...no matter what the thread is.....he focuses on me: thumbs:
    Secretly I believe he knows I am being quite truthful with him....I think the more he tries to fight against the verses....the more he will start to see them everywhere

    My fan club comes and goes.....mandym, Robert snow, winman, dr ach,...looks like...mostly goes
     
    #5 Iconoclast, Dec 17, 2014
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  6. DHK

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    It is sad but true that a few who joined this board many years ago have left the Baptist faith and have joined the RCC's. "God allowed them to believe that doctrine???"
    While here some left Calvinism. "God allowed them to become non-Cals??"
    Some, on their own accord chose to believe Calvinist doctrine. It was their choice. And yet, "one cannot become a Calvinist unless God allows them to believe the doctrine??"

    How do you sort through all of this and yet still be consistent in your position?
     
  7. steaver

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    Interesting. I know we have quite a few Calvinist on this board always watching the conversations and weighing in here and there. Only one has stepped up so far in agreement with Icon, where are all the others? Oh, and you didn't bother to give your answer either Willis..........or do you just go along with whatever Icon tells you to believe?
     
  8. steaver

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    Have I ever called you a liar? Of course you are being truthful with your beliefs and are not afraid to speak them. Others not so much........kinda get a bit timid when it comes to answering the tough questions.

    :laugh::laugh::laugh: Good one! :thumbsup:
     
  9. Revmitchell

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    That is quite a misuse of scripture there. There is nothing in the verses you quoted that show that God has withheld any biblical knowledge from Christians.

    And you have a real issue with trying to support your application of those verses when one considers Christians who are no longer calvinists.
     
  10. InTheLight

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    Man, I've seen it all now. Apparently, according to the quoted statement, Calvinism is the end-all of sanctification, that is you become a Christian first and if God favors you with divine enablement, eventually you will reach the rare sanctified airs of being a Calvinist.

    I know a lot of Calvinists can be smug and arrogant but this is the worst I've seen it. What a load of garbage.
     
  11. plain_n_simple

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    I know a lot of Calvinists can be smug and arrogant but this is the worst I've seen it. What a load of garbage.

    It's a false pride and the lack of understanding the word "whosoever". Simple.
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    Explain your feelings if you would......
    also what do you mean by whosoever.

    you know of course that the word whosoever doesn't even appear in John three don't youeven if it did it really doesn't change the meaning of the verse anyway another thing I love you that a critical of what some of us would say I teach never seem to step up to the plate and all for what you believe about the same issues you just want to be critical call names and pat yourself on the back for being so you're standing aloof as a critic
     
    #12 Iconoclast, Dec 18, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2014
  13. Iconoclast

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    DHK

    many can be religious and believe many doctrines that are not true.
    just because someone believes something in the strength of their own flesh does it mean it was a God-given understanding or saving understanding of divine truth.

    someone can profess to believe the five points and again do it in the strength of their own flesh and eventually the flesh fails they fall away the drift off into something else that's what 2nd Peter warns about at the end it says that some of Paul's writings a very hard to be understood which some wr
    est they twist the scripture to put it on a torture rack and eventually drift off into another belief
     
  14. Iconoclast

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    it is not meant to be any one verse that answers the whole question these verses were added in addition to 1st Corinthians 2 10 to 15sometimes on a topic it's a combination of verses where you piece together the overall teaching of Scripture so it's meant to be used in conjunction with other scriptures not just one for standing all by itself and answering every question
     
  15. The Archangel

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    Plain_N_Simple...

    May I ask which reference or references to "whosoever" you have in mind?

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  16. plain_n_simple

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    No you may not. My statement was in response and in agreement with In The Light's statement, reproduced in bold.
     
  17. DHK

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    With all due respect Icon, and respect is one of the major issues here, there are a great many scholars both now and in ages past that are not Calvinist in doctrine. Your condemnation of them is out of order. Simply because they are non-Cal does not mean they "believe something in the strength of their own flesh," and it certainly does not mean that they don't have a "God-given understanding or saving understanding of divine truth."
    If anyone is questioning the salvation of others--all non-cals on the board and throughout history it is you. What a terrible accusation.
    IOW, some can go from a Calvinist position to a non-Cal position, right?
    Is that what you are saying?
    You do believe my beliefs are in error. You constantly call them error, even sometimes heretical. In fact many of the Calvinists do.
    I remember Luke. One of his favorite lines: "Calvinism is the gospel."
    Pure arrogance on the part of Calvinism which implies that every non-Cal does not have the gospel and as Rippon and Archangel are so upset about, infer that a whole group are under the curse of Gal.1:6-9. But we suffer without complaint. Cals raise a fuss with no end in sight.
     
  18. Baptist4life

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    Iconoclast............trying to decipher your posts is extremely irritating. It's hard to tell where one sentence ends and another begins. Do you not have punctuation keys on your keyboard?
     
  19. Iconoclast

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    sorry b4life....I was using voice to text....I will try and edit if I can:thumbsup:

    Could not edit..it was to long ago...I am at my laptop now...
     
    #19 Iconoclast, Dec 18, 2014
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  20. Iconoclast

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    DHK


    Correct...I have several on my book shelf, many godly men:thumbsup:
    I do not condemn them as you did to Dr. Mohler:wavey:

    I was not speaking of every person, do not read that into my post.

    Allow me to clarify....

    Speaking for myself....I understand what is called Calvinism , tulip, DoG, to be the truth of God.

    So the question becomes how then can everyone not agree on this?

    There are many answers along the Spectrum. J.C. Ryle, Richard baxter and others like them....did not hold to the 5 pts....in totality...

    They had partial and substantial agreement, but could not reconcile some verses to the position ,so they stood their ground.

    I do not see where they violently attacked believers who see all 5 pts as they understood the differences. The different view on the L....did not effect their study and teaching on sanctification to a point where they went out of the camp.
    Here on BB....you have many who are clueless on the issue and verses at issue, and yet they just post day after day attacks upon the biblical God, His word and His church.
    They think nothing of speaking in profane ways about God and His revealed will. They cover it[in their mind] by saying.....this is what I would have to believe about God if I held what you do.

    .

    Seriously DHK...I know you are still in damage control mode trying to cover your recent posting gaffs, but you cannot even say this to me at all.
    What credibility can you have when you throw Dr. Mohler under the bus and do not even think twice about it???

    Those who mock biblical truth will answer to God. I cannot judge any man as I cannot read their hearts. I can read their posts however and when I raise any issue in general terms you and others look to try and make me say what I did not say to discredit the point made.....Again..let me illustrate;

    I have made several statements that have biblical backing and are given as warnings....the warnings are given to help the person to not suffer the consequences of ignoring the warnings.

    Here is an example I used recently;

    15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

    16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood
    ,

    which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
    18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

    Peter instructs the believers of scoffers who scoff at some of pauls teachings, in such a way that it leads to their destruction...it is called the error of the WICKED
    he then says that believers know these things beforehand..are to BEWARE...do you see this in vs 17....???

    If I quote this it is quite biblical...paul wrote more about election and predestination than almost anyone. I believe I am on solid ground.

    I did not single out anyone here by name, but I am not afraid to offer the warning.

    Some who scoff now...will come to these truths later...so I am in no position to say someone is outside of orthodox as you and your friend speak of Dr. Mohler. what you are doing now is trying to make an eqvialency argument
    by building your pattened strawman as you attacked AA and rippon, who called you into question.
    Professed Calvinists...are NOT exempt from the warning passages either.

    A person can read and memorize a position...like the guy several years ago who had a show on broadway where he would recite from memory the gospel of mark from memory but he was a professed agnostic.

    I did not mind you raising the issue about "new calvinism' as I have questioned it and do not fully embrace it...nor do I have to.
    it was your lumping in Dr M the way you did...

    I have said before...you hold and teach definite error, which I offered you correction on, and you refused to even listen to two men open up the greek text for you.
    I have also seen you defend some of the truth, trinity, deity, scripture on other denm forum. you are a mix,as we all are.
    and I find your refusal to consider the correction offered troubling ..If you considered it and gave biblical reason for your rejection that would be one thing...but you refuse to look.
    There is a reason for that...
    The statement from Spurgeon is accurate when correctly understood;


    It is no novelty, then, that I am preaching; no new doctrine. I love to proclaim these strong old doctrines that are called by nickname Calvinism, but which are truly and verily the revealed truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus. By this truth I make my pilgrimage into the past, and as I go, I see father after father, confessor after confessor, martyr after martyr, standing up to shake hands with me . . . Taking these things to be the standard of my faith, I see the land of the ancients peopled with my brethren; I behold multitudes who confess the same as I do, and acknowledge that this is the religion of God's own church. (Spurgeon's Sovereign Grace Sermons, Still Waters Revival Books, p. 170).

    I have my own opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing unchangeable eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross. (Charles Spurgeon, The New Park Street Pulpit, Vol. 1, 1856).

    You said that, not us....Rippon was clear when he gave his view how it is....
     
    #20 Iconoclast, Dec 18, 2014
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