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A Question for Calvinists?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Roy1, Jun 21, 2004.

  1. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps we diverge from the topic because we don't really know the answer ;) ?
     
  2. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    I second the motion. [​IMG]
     
  3. Roy1

    Roy1 New Member

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    Why do you think I am asking the question? It is a tough one. :confused:

    It has been playing on my mind for some months and a definitive answer eludes me.

    With the wealth of wisdom out there and all the Drs, Masters of theology, Bachelor degrees, etc, and good old God given wisdom which beats them all, I am looking for some added light on the matter. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    Keep on keeping on.

    Thanks folks.

    Roy.
    [​IMG]
     
  4. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    I must be more of a trichotomist than I thought I was. It seems to me that the spirit is dead before it is quickened at salvation, that is a spiritual birth. "Something else," be it mind, emotion, will, volition, whatever makes the decision that results in the spirit being born. If that spiritual birth never takes place, it is never born and will not suffer in eternity. Perhaps it is that "something else" which sufers?

    I clearly don't know for sure, thoughts on this idea?
     
  5. Roy1

    Roy1 New Member

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    What Roger is taking us back to is, “What is spiritual death.”

    Is it a sprit that is just separated from God, but still conscious?

    Or is it dead as in the physical sense and has no consciousness?

    This may help in the finding of an answer. Because if the spirit is separated from God and is conscious then it can feel the agony of eternity separated from God.

    If it is dead in that physical way, then it will not feel any agony of Hell because it is dead. Hell will be physical and emotional with no spiritual connection.

    Unless God makes that dead spirit live to feel that agony. If so when and why, I do not know. :confused:

    Does this make any sense?

    Roy.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I apologize - that's why (after I had already posted, sorry) I started a new thread on the topic.
     
  7. Roy1

    Roy1 New Member

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    I apologize - that's why (after I had already posted, sorry) I started a new thread on the topic. </font>[/QUOTE]No Problem, I look forward to reading the other thread.

    God bless,
    Roy
     
  8. Ian Major

    Ian Major New Member

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    Roy1 said
    If it is dead in that physical way, then it will not feel any agony of Hell because it is dead. Hell will be physical and emotional with no spiritual connection.

    Hmmm. I think the reality, the important thing to keep us from talking mysticism, is the PERSON who suffers eternal torment. Even if we said his spirit was not conscious (because never made alive), the person we talk to on the street will one day lift up his eyes in Hades, being in torments. That is what we all understand by eternal death, perishing.

    Is this discussion about tripartite vs bipartite being, or about the reality of eternal punishment?

    In Him

    Ian
     
  9. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Only in light of everyone "choosing in Adam" as Calvinists put it, could it be a defense of Free Will. (Like if one of us here resorted to such a theory to try to agree with your federal headship doctrine). Otherwise, the premise seems more instrumental in shaping Augustinian theology.
     
  10. Roy1

    Roy1 New Member

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    The question is not about the reality of hell and its torment. I believe that it is real and eternal, but that is not the question on this thread. I am inquiring as to the extent of that torment. Is it mental, physical and spiritual? If in Heaven we are experiencing eternal mental, physical and spiritual blessedness, is the reality of torment the same in hell.

    I know it may sound a strange question, and some are talking about the tripartite vs bipartite being, our views on this matter may help in trying to define if there is a spiritual aspect to hell. Let me also throw in the lake of fire before some one jumps on that band wagon. As hell will be cast into it.

    Still looking,

    Roy.
     
  11. Ian Major

    Ian Major New Member

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    Roy1 said
    The question is not about the reality of hell and its torment. I believe that it is real and eternal, but that is not the question on this thread. I am inquiring as to the extent of that torment. Is it mental, physical and spiritual? If in Heaven we are experiencing eternal mental, physical and spiritual blessedness, is the reality of torment the same in hell.

    Yes, I see your question clearly now. I suggest a direct equilavence between the state of the lost and that of the saved: the rich man, and Lazarus for example. Whatever was true for the one was true for the other, the only difference being the nature of the experience, misery or blessedness.

    To hold that the wicked person does not have his spirit conscious in eternity, one must also say their spirit was NEVER conscious, from the moment of their creation, throughout their life. It is to say that we all were born with unconscious spirits (spiritual death, as defined by this argument) and only come to have conscious spirits when we are regenerated. Seems to me a faulty defination of spiritual death.

    In Him

    Ian
     
  12. Roy1

    Roy1 New Member

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    I agree Ian,
    The premise is a faulty one. Everything seems to point to the definition of spiritual death. I do not believe that man is born with an unconscious spirit. So the reality of hell is physical, mental & spiritual, as is our blessedness in Heaven. Hell seems o be the exact opposite of what heaven is.

    That is why I am asking what seems to be a strange question. A strict Calvinist would have to say that there is no spiritual aspect to hell, unless he has scripture some where to show that the spirit of man is quickened prior to being cast into hell.


    Roy.
    [​IMG]
     
  13. Ian Major

    Ian Major New Member

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    Roy1 said
    That is why I am asking what seems to be a strange question. A strict Calvinist would have to say that there is no spiritual aspect to hell, unless he has scripture some where to show that the spirit of man is quickened prior to being cast into hell.

    Roy, I think you are confused regarding Calvinism. Calvinists do not equate spiritual death with spiritual unconsciousness. They believe the unregenerate are fully spiritually conscious in this life and the next: in this life, consciously hating God; in the next, in torments for it.

    Spiritual quickening is regeneration. None of the regenerate will be in hell.

    In Him

    Ian
     
  14. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Roy said:

    What is a strict Calvinist ?
     
  15. Roy1

    Roy1 New Member

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    I am sorry Ian,
    it is not that I am confused it seems to come from the myriad of Calvinists. The ones I have spoken to and in fact one that I have been speaking to on a one to one bases for a number of weeks now equate them as the same. They have been the ones that have joined the picture of spiritual death with physical death.

    You are the first I have heard say that the two are not the same and the unsaved man has a conscious spirit. Just this week I heard a tape of a sermon that used exactly the same picture. The preacher a 5 point Calvinist, tells the congregation that those unsaved among them are, “Deaf, blind, bound, that they cannot hear or understand.”

    As in many of these issues there are as many views as there are people. I can only share with you from the ones I have personally spoken to.

    Roy.
     
  16. Ian Major

    Ian Major New Member

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    Roy1 said
    You are the first I have heard say that the two are not the same and the unsaved man has a conscious spirit. Just this week I heard a tape of a sermon that used exactly the same picture. The preacher a 5 point Calvinist, tells the congregation that those unsaved among them are, “Deaf, blind, bound, that they cannot hear or understand.”

    I think you misunderstand what they are saying. I have NEVER heard any Calvinist assert the unconsciousness of the unregenerate spirit. The man you quoted says no more than any Calvinist, that the unregenerate are deaf, blind, etc. But that means deaf in the sense of John 8:37, He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God." And so also with seeing and understanding. Not unconsciousness of spirit, rather a spirit separate from God, without saving knowledge of Him. In eternity even the common grace that God accords to all men is removed from them and theirs is an eternity of darkness and separation from God - conscious separation.

    In Him

    Ian
     
  17. Roy1

    Roy1 New Member

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    Again Ian,
    It is not my misunderstanding of what they are saying. I have plainly asked if they are saying that the spirit of man is dead, just and in physical death and every time the answer has been YES. They have said death is death; the picture they use is a consistent one.

    Again I can only share with you what they have shared with me and they consider themselves Calvinists.

    I believe that the spirit of man is separated from God and that his spirit is conscious.

    Roy.
     
  18. Ian Major

    Ian Major New Member

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    Roy1 said
    It is not my misunderstanding of what they are saying. I have plainly asked if they are saying that the spirit of man is dead, just and in physical death and every time the answer has been YES. They have said death is death; the picture they use is a consistent one.... Again I can only share with you what they have shared with me and they consider themselves Calvinists.

    I respect that you have grasped their meaning to be so. But I would be amazed if that is what they meant. I'll ask any of the other Calvinists onthe list if they have ever heard of this interpretation.

    I believe that the spirit of man is separated from God and that his spirit is conscious.

    I totally agree. I hope to find that is the view of the other Calvinists.

    In Him

    Ian
     
  19. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    by Ian Major:

    Here is what I believe, and which is basically what Primitive Baptists believe. In fact, this is from one of our websites:

     
  20. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    (sorry, folks, but I felt the quote should be proper, and my diabetic brain forgot to close the quote to properly identify where the doctrinal statement ends and where my statement begins, so here it is again).
     
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