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A Question for Calvinists?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Roy1, Jun 21, 2004.

  1. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Yes, death is death, but the inability to respond is an inability to respond to spiritual stimuli. It is spiritual death. It does not mean that a man is totally unconscious and unable to respond to anything. A spiritually dead person has no response to spiritual things, just as a physically dead person has no response to spiritual things. The spiritually dead always reject spiritual truth.
     
  2. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Forgive me if I'm repeating, I didn't read every post...

    The question here seems to be this:

    How did the Rich man who was being tormented in Hell know and understand that his brothers needed to hear the message of salvation if he was spiritually dead? I thought spiritually dead men were ignorant of spiritual matters? Wouldn't the rich man be tormented in ignorance not even knowing why he was being tormented since he was dead? Think about it. Even if he was told, while in Hell, that you are suffering in Hell because you did not believe in God he couldn't have understood that because after all he is still spiritually dead, right?
     
  3. massdak

    massdak Active Member
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    sorta true but you must understand that the rich man may have only knew that salvation was available as many lost do, but they are so decieved as to understand the spiritual object of knowing that Christ is Lord

    1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
     
  4. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    The questioner missed the whole point of that parable, contained in Father Abraham's reply to the rich man's request. The reply was:
    Spiritually dead. Unable to believe even if one rose from the dead and told them about that place. As for the rich man, he certainly is alive, since all the wicked will be resurrected and put in hell a whole personality, body, soul, and spirit. Read Revelations 20.
     
  5. Roy1

    Roy1 New Member

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    Ian please do not continue to insult my intelligence about conversations that you were not privy to. Because the people that I have spoken to are not your type of Calvinists, it does not mean that I have misunderstood or not grasped anything. It means you were not there to hear what they said, So be amazed at THEIR interpretation, not mine.

    It amazed me that they continued with such a thought, but they have. Please refer to my last post at my brief view on the matter.

    Roy.
     
  6. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I apologize for being blunt, but I get the impression you are asking what you hope to be a "trick question" that traps Calvinists into admitting that man's spirit is at least "partly" alive, if not fully alive, otherwise it cannot be conscious. And if it is conscious, then it has the ability to respond to God. If this is not what you're trying to do, I apologize. But let me address that approach:

    Yes, Calvinists say things like "the spirit is dead, and cannot respond to God's call unless it is quickened or made alive". To emphasize that, they say (and I, too have used this illustration) that dead is dead -- you can call to all the dead people in a graveyard all you want, and nobody is going to "decide" to respond. They're dead. They can't respond.

    But it's only an illustration and, admittedly, it is something of a mixed metaphor. When you call to dead bodies, you're not calling to their spirits. And when people talk about dead bodies, they talk about individuals. When they talk about the dead spirit of man, they talk about the current state of ALL men, which they inherited from Adam. People's bodies aren't born dead, but people's spirits ARE born dead to God due to what we inherited from Adam's sin. So you can't really make a one-for-one comparison and come to any sane conclusion.

    But perhaps I can draw a slightly better (if still imperfect) analogy, which should illustrate that you can't necessarily conclude from Calvinist statements that a dead spirit means a spirit that is not conscious, or that a conscious spirit means it must be able to respond to God.

    In general, a body that is alive grows, changes and can move any which way a person wishes as long as the person is alive. When the body dies, some things continue to grow (hair, nails) and change (it deteriorates), but the person can no longer willfully animate the body.

    And once it is dead, you can't take a dead body and get it animated by self-will again by trying to convince it with puppeteer movements. Push it and pull it all you want - it's not going to move around of its own will anymore. It can't. It's dead to self-willed movement, and you cannot make it alive to self-willed movement anymore. Only God can resurrect the flesh and make it alive to self-willed movement again, as He did with Lazarus when Jesus raised Lazarus from the tomb.

    Now, we are not born with spirits that are alive to God, but the spirit of man in Adam WAS alive to God. Adam's spirit could of its own self-will grow in God, move toward God and respond to the things of God.

    When the spirit of Adam died, he passed on his dead spirit to the rest of his generations. We are all, therefore, born with a spirit that is dead to God. Our spirit can no longer respond to God of its own will. It may be conscious, but it is dead to God. You can push and pull the spirit of man by preaching the word of God to it day and night, hoping to get it to respond to God again (as Adam's spirit was once able to do before the fall), but it's not going to respond to God. It can't. It's dead to God. Only God can resurrect the spirit of man and give it the ability of self-willed movement toward God by quickening it (making it alive to God again). This is what God does with the elect.

    So the whole issue of whether the spirit is conscious is irrelevant. A "spiritually dead" man is not a man without a conscious spirit. It is a man with a spirit that is dead to the things of God, and has no ability to "hear" or "understand" the things of God. Unless the man is REBORN FROM ABOVE, he remains dead to God.

    By the way, the fact that Jesus says that you must be BORN FROM ABOVE should tell you that your spirit starts out dead. A "partially dead" spirit only needs CPR and to be revived. A dead spirit needs to be reborn.
     
  7. Roy1

    Roy1 New Member

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    npetreley,

    The question is not a trick one, but an honest one. It is based on conversations that I have had which you can see are based on a false illustration, of a dead body and a dead spirit. I am looking for a better understanding of a Calvinistic view. It is not my fault that those that I have spoken to have not the same idea of spiritual death as you do.

    That is why I have asked the question.

    They have equated it with a totally unconscious spirit. Since I believe that the spirit of man is conscious and that part of their torment in Hell is a spiritual one, the original question was a honest question. It was to see if Calvinist’s in general see the unsaved as having a spiritual aspect to hell.

    As always the thread gets twisted from the original question.

    Roy.
     
  8. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Thanks for the further explanation, Roy1.

    I don't meet many Calvinists, and as I have not read Calvin much, myself, I arrived at my conclusions by reading the Bible, after which I felt my conclusions where reinforced by a masterful work by Martin Luther called Bondage of the Will. After that, I started to read Sproul and Spurgeon. But, as I said, I haven't read Calvin's works.

    I'm telling you this so you'll know what exposure I've had, because I do not get the impression from what I've read and who I've met that Calvinists (or those who believe in election and predestination) believe the spirit is unconscious. It is simply dead to the things of God, which some would describe the same way you put it -- conscious but separated from God.

    However, I believe that separation makes it unable to comprehend the things of God or respond to God.

    Sproul described this predicament extremely well in one of his books, and as soon as I can find it when I unpack my books, I'll try to remember to quote his description.

    Until then, let me rephrase a question I raised earlier, because now I believe it is pertinent. Is satan able to repent? If not, why not? He is a conscious spirit, isn't he? What changed that he has become unable to repent?

    I would suggest the possibility that what changed is that God withdrew His Spirit from satan, which is why satan fell in the first place. And without God's Spirit, satan is unable to do anything BUT sin, because satan's own spirit -- separated from God's spirit -- is unable to "agree" with God.
     
  9. Ian Major

    Ian Major New Member

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    Roy1 said
    Ian please do not continue to insult my intelligence about conversations that you were not privy to. Because the people that I have spoken to are not your type of Calvinists, it does not mean that I have misunderstood or not grasped anything. It means you were not there to hear what they said, So be amazed at THEIR interpretation, not mine.

    I truly did not mean to insult your intelligence, Roy. I do know from my own experience that one can misunderstand another's position if that position is ambiguously stated. I certainly have seen good men so clear in their own minds that they have failed to see how their statements could be misconstrued. 'Dead means dead' can mean to me no life toward God, but very much lively antagonism to God. To another hearer, it means unconscious or even non-existent.

    Part of the present problem may arise from your seeing the spirit as separate from the soul in dealing with 'death'. I think Reformed theologians conceive of the spirit and soul together when they describe man's Fall.

    Here's a bit from Dordt:

    'The Third and Fourth Main Points of Doctrine
    Human Corruption, Conversion to God, and the Way It Occurs

    Article 1: The Effect of the Fall on Human Nature

    Man was originally created in the image of God and was furnished in his mind with a true and salutary knowledge of his Creator and things spiritual, in his will and heart with righteousness, and in all his emotions with purity; indeed, the whole man was holy. However, rebelling against God at the devil's instigation and by his own free will, he deprived himself of these outstanding gifts. Rather, in their place he brought upon himself blindness, terrible darkness, futility, and distortion of judgment in his mind; perversity, defiance, and hardness in his heart and will; and finally impurity in all his emotions.

    Article 2: The Spread of Corruption

    Man brought forth children of the same nature as himself after the fall. That is to say, being corrupt he brought forth corrupt children. The corruption spread, by God's just judgment, from Adam to all his descendants-- except for Christ alone--not by way of imitation (as in former times the Pelagians would have it) but by way of the propagation of his perverted nature.

    Article 3: Total Inability

    Therefore, all people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin; without the grace of the regenerating Holy Spirit they are neither willing nor able to return to God, to reform their distorted nature, or even to dispose themselves to such reform.'

    As you can see, man's inner man, as distinguisheed from his body, is regarded as a whole.

    In Him

    Ian
     
  10. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Let me add to Ian's quote this section of Luther's Bondage of the Will. Note that many scholars regard Calvin as little more than a footnote to Luther on this topic of election and free will - so I would expect Calvin to have agreed with the following. (Emphasis mine)

    BUT however, before we hear the Evangelist John, I will just add the crowning testimony from Paul: and I am prepared, if this be not sufficient, to oppose Paul to "Free-will" by commenting upon him throughout. Where he divides the human race into two distinctive divisions, "flesh" and "spirit," he speaks thus—"They that are after the flesh, do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit, do mind the things of the Spirit," (Rom. viii. 5). As Christ also does, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit," (John iii 6).

    That Paul here calls all carnal who are not spiritual, is manifest, both from the division itself and the opposition of spirit to flesh, and from the very words of Paul himself, where he adds, "But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His" (Rom. viii. 9). What else is the meaning of "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of Christ dwell in you," but, that those who have not the "Spirit," are, necessarily, in the "flesh?" And if any man be not of Christ, what else is he but of Satan? It is manifest, therefore, that those who are devoid of the Spirit, are "in the flesh," and under Satan.


    Notice that, as he continues, Luther is not saying that man is dead becahse he lacks a spirit or lacks a conscious spirit, but man is dead because he lacks THE Spirit.

    Now let us see what his opinion is concerning the endeavour and the power of "Free-will" in the carnal, who are in the flesh. "They cannot please God." Again, "The carnal mind is death." Again, "The carnal mind is enmity against God," And again, "It is not subject to the law of God neither indeed can be." (Rom. viii. 5-8).

    Did you catch that? The carnal mind (i.e. the spiritually dead, not man without A spirit but man without THE Spirit) is death AND the carnal mind is enmity against God. Now, if Luther had meant anything at all like "man's spirit is dead and therefore not conscious", he could not have said that the carnal mind is enmity against God. An unconscious spirit has no enmity toward anything, since it does not think. Luther continues...

    Here let the advocate for "Free-will" answer me—How can that endeavour toward good "which is death," which "cannot please God," which "is enmity against God," which "is not subject to God," and "cannot" be subject to him? Nor does Paul mean to say, that the carnal mind is dead and inimical to God; but that, it is death itself, enmity itself which cannot possibly be subject to the law of God or please God, as he had said just before, "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did," &c. (Rom. viii. 3).

    But I am very well acquainted with that fable of Origen concerning the three-fold affection; the one of which he calls 'flesh,' the other 'soul,' and the other 'spirit,' making the soul that medium affection, vertible either way, towards the flesh or towards the spirit. But these are merely his own dreams; he speaks them forth only, but does not prove them. Paul here calls every thing "flesh" that is without the "Spirit," as I have already shewn. Therefore, those most exalted virtues of the best men are in the flesh; that is, they are dead, and at enmity against God; they are not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be; and they please not God. For Paul does not only say that such men are not subject, but that they cannot be subject. So also Christ saith, "An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit." (Matt. vii. 17). And again, "How can ye being evil speak that which is good," (Matt. xii. 34). Here you see, we not only speak that which is evil, but cannot speak that which is good.
     
  11. Roy1

    Roy1 New Member

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    Gentlemen,
    Please note that I have not said the spirit of man was dead, I was asking the question based not conversations with some that said mans spirit was dead in the same sense as physical death.

    I have not disputed that man has a conscious spirit. I believe that he has, and left to his own devices will never seek after God.

    Note the original question

    “Is the spirit of those cast into hell then the lake of fire alive? Is there a spiritual aspect to their punishment?”

    All I was asking is there a spiritual aspect to hell?
    Then if so those that have used the illustration of physical death need to answer when was that spirit quickened to feel that punishment.

    The rabbit trails from the original question need to shot.

    Roy.
     
  12. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    “Is the spirit of those cast into hell then the lake of fire alive? Is there a spiritual aspect to their punishment?”

    The simple answer to the first question is, "It all depends upon what you mean by 'alive'".

    The simple answer to the second question is, "What is spiritual punishment?"

    If by "spiritual punishment" you mean separation from the Spirit of God, then I would guess "yes". After all, man is already born in that condition, and if man remains unsaved, he remains in that condition, so why would it change after being tossed into Lake Flambe?

    Otherwise I have no idea what you mean by spiritual punishment.
     
  13. Roy1

    Roy1 New Member

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    For the want of a better phrase let’s use conscious instead of alive.

    Is man spiritually conscious and aware of his separation from God for all of eternity? This is what I mean by a spiritual aspect to their punishment. I hope this clears up the confusion. :confused:

    Again it is asked to try and understand those that said the spirit of man is dead just as in the physical sense. (I don’t agree that it is, you don’t agree that it is, but some do, and I was trying to get a better understanding of THEIR position).


    Roy.
     
  14. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Again, you are asking two things here, and they are not necessarily both true.

    Is the man spiritually conscious? I would say "Yes". Is the man aware of his separation from God for all eternity? I would say "No" - at least not while man's spirit is in the flesh.

    I would have to add, then, "Is the man aware of his separation from God for all eternity when he is in Lake Flambe?" That I cannot answer with any degree of confidence, because the Bible doesn't answer the question directly.

    The closest thing to an answer I can find is the parable about Lazarus and the rich man. (By the way, some people believe this is not a parable at all, but is a true story either of the future or past, since it is the only parable where Jesus actually refers to a person by name. I don't know if it is a parable or not.)

    24 "Then he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

    1. It doesn't seem like the rich man is even aware that there's an unpassable gulf between Abraham and himself, let alone between himself and God.

    2. Although the rich man seems to want mercy, he is still unrepentant. He is not confessing his guilt here or admitting he deserves what he gets, he just wants some relief from the torture.

    Note also here...

    27 "Then he said, "I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'

    By the answer Abraham gives him, it is obvious the rich man is still unaware of what it would have taken to avoid his fate, and he doesn't even seem the least bit interested in finding out. He also doesn't seem to have a whit of concern for his "fellow man". He's just (selfishly) asking for a favor that his brothers be spared.

    So I would say that while the rich man is certainly spiritually conscious, he's still spiritually dead, and oblivious to the things of God, let alone what it means to be eternally separated from Him. He's just having a self-pity party.
     
  15. Roy1

    Roy1 New Member

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    May it be that in Luke 16 that the rich man was fully aware of his sate?

    We know that he did not ask when he could get out and when his anguish would be over!

    He did ask for water, but did not ask to go over to get some, but perchance Lazarus could come to him.

    It seems that he was aware that his condition was due to the fact that he did not repent.
    Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
    He did not repent,and after death it is too late, but maybe his brothers would if one rose from the dead.

    BTW I think it was a story not a parable.

    Roy.
     
  16. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I think he was fully aware that he was miserable, but as to his spiritual state, I'd say no. Otherwise he wouldn't have bothered to ask for water. A truly repentant spirit would have known he didn't deserve relief.

    But we don't know why he didn't ask this. There isn't enough information.

    All the more reason why he is obviously spiritually dead. You might speculate that he knew he couldn't leave. But I could also speculate that he was so self-centered that he simply wanted to be served up some relief.

    I think he understood enough to know that repentance was required. I assume he was a Jew, and since the scriptures say that often enough, he was probably familiar with that.

    I don't think he understood at all what it meant to repent, however.

    I certainly get a strong message of election from this story, though. Abraham blows off the whole idea of sending someone from the dead as being the most convincing argument by saying, hey - they have Moses, etc. If they won't believe that, they won't believe if someone rises from the dead (an obvious reference to Jesus, IMO).

    This, IMO, is a repetition of what Moses said in Deuteronomy 29:

    2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: "You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land-- 3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. 4 Yet the LORD has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

    If the LORD doesn't give you a heart to perceive, ears to hear, etc., then no words, and not even the most spectacular signs and wonders will bring you to repentance and obedience.
     
  17. Roy1

    Roy1 New Member

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    npetreley

    BTW,

    Are you aware that he was a one eyed, three legged man? :rolleyes:

    You have built a very strong argument on nothing. I thought I would throw this in, it means nothing but hey what difference does it make.

    If I am convinced about it and we are told nothing different, it must be true.

    You are reading a lot into this based on your preconceived ideas. You seem to have strong ideas about this mans thoughts, reading between the lines. Can you at least admit there may be a possibility of another interpretation of Luke 16?

    Note that I have said, maybe, seems and perchance. :rolleyes:

    Roy.
     
  18. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I'm not sure what you are talking about, unless you're addressing my statement about election, and I followed it with IMO (in my opinion). IMO, it is a very strong statement on election. That's not a strong argument, it's a strong opinion.

    If you want strong arguments about election, I'll be glad to give them to you, since the Bible is filled with them from cover to cover. But this story isn't one I'd pick as a prime example.

    As for the rest, you failed to notice my repeated use of "I don't know", "I think", "it seems", and "speculation".

    It seems, maybe, perchance that you have overreacted.
     
  19. Roy1

    Roy1 New Member

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  20. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    None taken, thanks. [​IMG]

    Neither do I. I think I've said all I can speculate on the topic. I personally don't think there is a definitive answer in the Bible, but if you find one, I hope you share it.
     
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