A question for Pre-Trib only

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Salty, Dec 20, 2010.

  1. Salty

    Salty
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    I was talking the other day to someone about doctrine in general. We mentioned that regardless how we believe about the tribulation - pre,post, A, or none - it does not affect our salvation. Now, one preacher mentioned he was post-trib. He doesn't have a problem with those who preach pre-trib, but when they do, they should prepare their congregation for post-trib, just in case the rapture does not occur before the trib.

    Thoughts?

    and please if you are post trib, please do not post.
     
  2. glfredrick

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    I am mid-trib, does that count against me?

    I've long said that the pure pre-trib account that is often taught in our churches has and is doing a lot of damage because IF the church is not raptured out before the first bad thing starts to happen, no one in the church is going to be prepared to deal with the bad stuff in any way.

    When I read the Olivette Discourse in Matthew, it sure sounds like the church is going to have to be prepared to deal with some form of tribulation. Jesus was not saying that to un-believers!
     
  3. franklinmonroe

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    That 'cover-all-the-bases' approach would completely undermine the Pastor's entire teaching.
     
  4. HankD

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    I don't know if this position qualifies but the only biblical position backed by scripture IMO is the pre-wrath position.

    My sense is pre-tribulation because the Great Tribulation has traditionally been associated with "Jacob's trouble" and the focus is upon Israel (Israel being Jacob's name after He wrestled with the angel, signifying "redeemed" Israel).

    Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.​

    In the context of the Second Coming in the venue of NT believers:

    1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
    8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.​

    The question is where in the timeline of this entity called "the tribulation, the great one (lit. koine of Revelation 7:14) is deliverance?​

    If there were one easy answer then there would only be one easy answer (amazing).​

    Then a second question comes up "where will we (the children of grace) be when the wrath of God falls upon this world, heaven or earth?".​

    In the habitation of the secret place of the Most High, our refuge, our fortress, our strong tower.

    Psalm 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
    2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
    3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
    4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
    5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
    6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
    7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
    8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
    9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation.

    Proverbs 18:10 The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe.​


    HankD​
     
  5. webdog

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    I'll Amen Hank's post. Believers need to be obedient to God and look for His return. If...and it's more like "unlikely"...the rapture was post trib, we are told from Scripture the Holy Spirit will give us the words to say when needed. Either way, His grace will prevail.

    I will say, it makes absolutely no sense for a believer in Jesus Christ to go through the Great Tribulation. It is a time for God's wrath against an unbelieving world and to restore Israel, not to mention His wrath against us was appeased at the cross.
     
  6. Salty

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    Web a& Hank

    You both had nice long replies, execpt for one thing (unless I missed it) : Should / Would you teach a "just in case" so your folks would be prepared in the event there was only a post Trib rapture?

    I would assume a simple yes or no should suffice
     
  7. webdog

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    I wouldn't. To me that would not be faith in the "blessed hope" I have, and it would emphasize man's work over the Spirit's.
     
  8. Fred's Wife

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    I agree. It would also be confusing. In addition, what else might this pastor be teaching that could be undermined by his 'cover-all-the-bases' approach?

    The best advice is to be a biblical Berean (Acts 17:11)
     
  9. glfredrick

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    Jesus said this (and I think THIS bears a warning!):

    3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

    4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ ,' and will mislead many. 6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

    9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

    14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

    23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. 24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect . 25 "Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. 27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
    Matt 24:3-28 (NASB)
     
  10. Salty

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    Could you do me a favor and read post # 6
     
  11. HankD

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    No. In my scenario it doesn 't matter.
     
  12. PastorGreg

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    Pre-trib here. No, no "just in case." We are told to expect "tribulation" and suffering anyway. Besides, when the Lord comes back, all the mid and posts will know the truth. :tongue3:
     
  13. matt wade

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    Maybe this preacher should also teach some other religions "just in case" Christianity is wrong?

    If you don't have believe in what you believe, then maybe you need to believe in something else?
     
  14. Gabriel Elijah

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    Not pre-trib here—but I actually think that is a humorous comment & wouldn’t mind if I was wrong about my eschatological & Christians avoided the tribulation (especially if I am alive when it happens). :smilewinkgrin:
     
  15. glfredrick

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    You either believe in a "nothing can touch us" pre-trib rapture, or you believe in the Scriptures that say that we need to beware of what will come our way in the end times.

    So, I would say that IF you actually believe in a pre-trib rapture, then say no. Nothing to fear from any end-time events.

    If, on the other hand you follow what the Scriptures teach, then you would probably not be preaching a pre-trib rapture anyway, so nothing changes.

    Sorry if you don't really like the answer. I'm not trying to be a smart Alec. There are issues, and that is why the pastor you cited in the OP is trying to cover all the bases.
     
  16. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11
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    I'm always fascinated when folks read through all of the NT prophecies concerning the 70th week of Daniel & completely overlook the the words which define the sense of "when" it will occur. In every instance, Scripture consistently refers to a soon tribulation that the hearers would witness. Why would the 1st Century believers & Jews be so warned to be prepared for a time of great tribulation that would not take place for at least 2,000yrs? The idea that God would spare us from unspeakable persecutions which past believers have experienced borders on arrogant.

    The natural grammatical sense of Scripture must be ignored or explained away in order to force some passages to conform to some doctrines.

    Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon THIS generation.

    And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive YOU.
    For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    And YOU shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that YOU be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet...
    Then shall they deliver YOU up to be afflicted, and shall kill YOU: and YOU shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake...
    When YOU therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
    Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    But pray ye that YOUR flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    Then if any man shall say unto YOU, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    Behold, I have told you before.
    Wherefore if they shall say unto YOU, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
     
    #16 michael-acts17:11, Dec 22, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2010
  17. Salty

    Salty
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    when folks dont read post # 6
     
  18. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11
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    Why would we need to be prepared for a fulfilled prophecy? I am awaiting the Second Coming, not a questionable rapture.

    The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field... Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

    And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
     
  19. Salty

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    read the OP
     

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