A question of authority

Mostly missions. This year we have sent $160,000 to the cooperative program for support of North American and international missions. We're also pretty active in the local community, helping people who need food and shelter. That is outside the church walls. Inside we do pretty much what you do--Sunday School, Sunday morning and Sunday evening worship service, Wed. night dinner and prayer meeting.

For the record, CoC doesn't believe in baptismal regeneration. They believe baptism is necessary for salvation as an act of obedience, but not as a modality of receiving graces.

For the record, I don't believe salvation is attained initially by works. However, if you expect to maintain it and be admitted to Heaven you will need to have some good works on your record. See Matthew 25.

 

You define your own terms and then call Satanic those practices and beliefs that Baptists have. No doubt most of the Baptist churches on this board have altar calls. You can disagree with them if you like. You may have your opinion. But this time you have crossed the line.

You are a guest at this board. You have a privilege, not a right to post here. To call the Baptist position and practices Satanic is out of line. Refrain from doing so.

 

First, you are not the moderator. That is not your call to make.
Second, what is impolite, improper, and downright rude, is for you to call Baptist doctrine and practice Satanic!

 

There are two different passages that show two different resurrections. One of those passages show clearly that the two resurrections are separated by a thousand years. And yet you still refuse to believe. Amazing!

 

Not so amazing read the passages again. All it says "before" the 1,000 year reign is

These are the martyrs. Their given judgement is one of governance.

Now note the discussion of the first ressurrection it doesn't happen 1,000 years before but after the thousand year reign. The text is clear.

It states it there for the general judgement. The next step for the righteous is eternal life this is the second and real ressurection. Just like those in the general judgement are condemned to the second death. Again clear that its 1 ressurrection with two destinations. You can say the Martyrs were resurrected but the scriptures does not claim that is the 1st resurrection. The Martyrs have a special governance roll with Christ the King. So your statement that

Is from improperly exegeting the passage.

 

Sweet mercy, calm down. He is only saying that to prove a point. You're playing right into his hand. Plus, people call me things like "satanic" or "apostate" or worse all the time and nobody raises a finger.

And it's no doubt that the idea of an altar call (or maybe "alter" call would be more like it) is still pretty novel in the grand scheme of things, and indicates an improper shift in theology of corporate worship.

 

Please provide just one example of someone on this forum calling you "satanic". Please, just one example.

 

I said "like" satanic. The point is that people are rude to people with dissenting opinions all the time.

 

Please provide an example where you have been called something "like" satanic.

 

would "heretic" suffice? Thats like "satanic".

 

Words have meanings. Jesus used those kind of words this way:

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44)

Take the verse literally. If I call your doctrine or practice Satanic what am I saying? What was Jesus saying? Yes Jesus said these things. What was he saying and what did he mean? Is your intent the same?

 

There is plenty of heresy that is floating around. Heresy that is taught by other churches. I do not call people heretics, so if you are referring to me quote me before laying the charge. I attack the doctrine not the person. For example baptismal regeneration is a heresy, a heretical view taught by the COC and by the RCC. I have always referred to it as such, and also pointed out that it was one of the first heresies to enter into Christianity. But I have never called any person believing it a heretic.

To call the Baptist doctrine, or their practice Satanic is totally uncalled for.
This is a Baptist board. Some respect is required. If there are those that don't like the rules there are many other boards that they can go to.

 

Nowhere does it say anything about a general judgment. Nowhere in Revelation does it speak about "the martyrs" being given judgment or governance. It speaks about those that are blessed to have taken place in the first resurrection which is a thousand years before the second resurrection which ends in the Second Death.

The Christians or dead in Christ were resurrected 1000 years previous to the Great White Throne Judgment. I can guarantee you that I will not be at that Judgment--the GWT. I will not be there. I know that because my name is written in the Book of Life.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15)

The second resurrection is for those whose names are not in that book, and they will be cast in the lake of fire. That scene is their "final sentencing. I already know that I will not be there.

 

I wasn't referring to you at all. Just noting that the term is quiet frequently used for a veriety of reasons. I agree to call Baptist Doctrine or practices Satanic is uncalled for. However, in this case, if I understand it correctly the person, billwald, I believe, was using a progression of logic to say that if such and such is so then to follow it to its logical conclusion would in fact indicate Baptist (doctrine/practice) is satanic. I believe that is the context rather than saying to hold to a particular baptist doctrine/practice is satanic. But then I could have misread the situation.

 

Revelation 20 clearly indicates that the Martyrs (only the Martyrs) are the first to rise. Everyone else is raised at the general (Great White throne judgement) Judgement. And there are two destinations. Heaven or Hell. Period. If you and I are not martyred this resurrection doesn't apply to us. Only the final general judgement. That is what I was trying to say.

 

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Okay, this may refer to those that die during the tribulation if that is what you are saying. But then who would they be?
1. The Jews that turn to Christ at the end of the tribulation--probably.
2. Other Christians--probably not. I don't believe there will be any others.
3. Perhaps unsaved like J.W.'s who will adamantly refuse the mark of the beast. They may refuse the mark of the beast, but they will not get to heaven by being martyred and still believing Christ is not Lord and God.
The only martyrs during the tribulation are the Jews. According to Romans 11:26 they will turn to Christ as their Messiah, as a nation.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Perhaps the one who did the verse partitioning didn't do a very good job here. It seems that "This is the first resurrection" goes better with verse 6.
The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years were finished.
The dead are spiritually dead--the unsaved. They will show up again at the Great White Throne Judgment in a thousand years in another resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4-6)
--The saved--all the saved--shall reign with Christ for a thousand years.
But where will they come from? Check chapter 19. They will come from heaven with Christ in defeating the armies of the world, and then to reign with Him on earth. They have already been in heaven celebrating the marriage feast of the lamb for the last seven years.

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. (Revelation 19:7)

And then:
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (Revelation 19:11)
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Revelation 19:14)
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (Revelation 19:15-16)
--Those armies are the believers which took part in the first resurrection.
That is why they are so blessed. They are the ones that will reign with Christ.

 

Believers who defied the antichrist and would not give up on their faith and died during this period. This would include both gentile and Jewish believers who are martyred.

I think the first ressurrection is for the Martyrs I miss applied that previously. In the NIV its in Parenthesis. However, the martyrs do not get ressurected again. For the Martyrs glory is assured. Everyone else is then Ressurrected at the final judgement. Both the spiritually dead and those who are in Christ. The spiritually dead will rise to condemnation and the second death and those in Christ will rise to their reward. This is where the seperation of the sheep and the Goats occur. They are raised together each to their own ressurection - death or reward.

Only the Martyrs.

 

It's against the forum rules to proselytize a false religion on this board. That is why you are here and that is what you are doing. I'll be reporting your post to the moderators and hopefully you'll be banned shortly.

 

Watermaker, are you a member of the "church of Christ" or the "Church of Christ?" There's a big difference.

Either way, though, I apologize for folks that proclaim Christ with one side of their mouths and spew venom from the other. We're not all like that.