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A question of headship and leadership

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Nov 25, 2011.

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  1. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    #21 12strings, Nov 27, 2011
  2. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    I’m hesitant to respond here because I believe the OP to be a troll and only looking to get a rise out of people. But – c’est la vie…

    The original poster keeps using the words “shamefacedness” and “silent” as if the two word are mutually inclusive in their meaning and as if this is all the Bible has to say about women.

    The two words aren’t inclusive. They have nothing to do with each other.

    The word shamefacedness in the Greek is the word αἰδώς (ī-dō's ) and only occurs twice in the King James Bible.

    1 Timothy 2:9 "In like manner also the women are to adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness (αἰδώς) and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works."

    …and…

    Hebrews 12:28 “Wherefore, we receiving a kingdom, which cannot be moved, let us have grace whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence (αἰδώς) and godly fear.”

    Shamefacedness means to act honorably, respectfully, reverently, and such in terms of others – be they other people or God, Himself.

    Women are not commanded to NOT wear braided hair or gold or pearls nor expensive clothes, but are admonished not to “adorn” themselves (κοσμέω – “kosmeo”) themselves this way. That is, according to the definition of kosmeo – women are admonished not to “gain honor” or “make way or prepare” for a “well-ordered life” in this manner. In other words, women are admonished not to make their reputation, lifestyle, or self-respect all about their looks. I believe that this admonishment is in the Bible because many women believe that their ONLY way of presenting themselves to gain the attention of men and the approval of others IS to place all of their value in their looks. Men – let’s be honest - are attracted to women who look a certain way. The Bible tells women, in multiple places, that this is not the way to live. But the Bible never says NOT to wear makeup or jewelry.

    So, according to the Bible, shamefacedness is all about behaving reverently and respectfully to others with - according to the definition - either with "shame, honor, or self-respect". And all people - men and women - are admonished to behave this way in Hebrews 12:28.

    A woman can most definitely open her mouth to speak, sing, teach others (under the direction and authority of the pastor) and still be behaving shamefacedly.
     
    #22 Scarlett O., Nov 27, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2011
  3. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Need more popcorn.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
    #23 Amy.G, Nov 27, 2011
  4. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Not just in church, but in society as well, marriage being the basic unit thereof.
     
    #24 Aaron, Nov 27, 2011
  5. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    What about women who aren't married? Women who's husbands have walked out on them? Who is our authority? I'm asking an honest question. At church, my authority is the pastor. But I'm honestly quite lost as to where I belong anymore. :tear:
     
    #25 Amy.G, Nov 27, 2011
  6. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    1 Corinthians 14:34 - 35

    Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

    This Scripture quote is a direct command in scripture that is violated in the modern church.

    Can anyone show me where this verse no longer should apply?
     
    #26 agedman, Nov 27, 2011
  7. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    What if there is no husband at home???
     
    #27 Amy.G, Nov 27, 2011
  8. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    I think there is a danger in taking the NT teaching on Marital headship and Church leadership roles and necessarily applying it to every cultural and societal venue. You end up with a teaching that basically says, "Every woman is to be subject to every man at all times." Which I don't believe is scriptural.

    I don't think my pastor's wife is subject to me, nor my wife to him.

    I once worked at a restaurant where the General manager was a woman. What should have been my response to that? Find another Job? Challenger her authority? Or simply do what she said to do and run my cash register, sweep the floors, etc?
     
    #28 12strings, Nov 27, 2011
  9. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    I myself believe there was a problem with women asking question at that time while the word of God was being preached. The Husband wasn't able to hear some of the message to explain later. I do believe Paul said this because some women where being disruptive during the message of God. Paul was simple telling them to leave those question to be asked at a later time not during the message. I am sorry that there was a time this was happening to me and I had to show my wife this passage.
     
    #29 psalms109:31, Nov 27, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2011
  10. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Yep, just couldn't leave that beehive alone.
     
    #30 Winman, Nov 27, 2011
  11. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Yet the very same author said that a woman may prophesy and pray.

    Additionally, how do you go to stretch this to outside the church?
     
    #31 annsni, Nov 27, 2011
  12. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Other than singing during the congregational singing, I was silent in church today.

    So I'm in full compliance!!!

    Oh wait. Shoot. I spoke to my husband in response to him telling me to put a new song in the computer. Darn, I guess I need to go to confession. Wait - can I confess? Can I talk? Should I stop my fingers from typing now???????


    :tonofbricks:
     
    #32 annsni, Nov 27, 2011
  13. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Annsni your examples answered.

    Prophecy is non-gender specific. There are and were both genders as prophets. But, that doesn't disavow Paul's command.

    It is important to remember that Priscilla was the WIFE of Aquila. What they did was exactly fitting.

    Phebe has a gift that was to be shared, and the "commend" is as a church letter sharing with another church the new member has a gift that has been and can be used to benefit the members.
     
    #33 agedman, Nov 27, 2011
  14. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    A brave acknowledgement

    This is obvious from the responses to the thread.

    It is all about the lust of the flesh, the pride of life, and the quenching of the Holy Spirit.
     
    #34 agedman, Nov 27, 2011
  15. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Next time the church wants to have a dinner, and the pastor asks the women what dish they could bring, all the women should cross their arms and say nothing.
     
    #35 Winman, Nov 27, 2011
  16. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    But you stated that women should be silent in the church. How do we prophesy in the church if we are to be silent?
     
    #36 annsni, Nov 27, 2011
  17. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    The gift is not conditioned upon the command being voided. The command is that women be silent in the church.

    A woman who has the gift of prophecy (fortune teller) in our modern churches may be welcome, but I doubt that they have a place in the true church. For God's word is sealed. Nothing is to be added not taken away (see Revelations for this injunction).

    Does that mean that prophecy is dead? All prophets must meet the two criteria of every thing they say agreeing with the revelation of God's word, and that the prophecy be true.

    Because all God's revelation is given in the scriptures and it is complete, the only "prophets" of the modern age are false.

    On a side, the promptings of the Holy Spirit within the heart that give a premonition of a situation or event, does not qualify that person as a prophet in the biblical sense.
     
    #37 agedman, Nov 27, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2011
  18. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    [​IMG]
     
    #38 Amy.G, Nov 27, 2011
  19. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Prophesy is not just story telling.
     
    #39 annsni, Nov 27, 2011
  20. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Depends

    If the women agree with the preacher - they might smile.

    If the women disagree with the preacher - they might smile and he will never be told about the extra ingredient that was added just for him.

    :smilewinkgrin:
     
    #40 agedman, Nov 27, 2011
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