A Question of Sots

Kind of a joke Aaron

 

I would agree. One who does not drink and decides to try a beer or wine for the first time notice the effect that one beer or that one glass of wine has on the body. After a certain amount of days of just that one can or glass, the body gets accustomed to the effects and the person does not notice them as before. Hence, the argument from the drinkers that there is no harm in drinking in moderation ...it has already deceived them into forgetting the original effects.

Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. (Proverbs 20:1)

 

So true SFIC

 

Aaron, For me, personally, it's when I feel a bit of a warmth in, believe it or not, my thighs. The tops of the muscles of my upper legs get warm. I have no idea why them, but that is my personal caution sign.

That being said, it's been a long, long time since I even had that much! Truth is, I enjoy a BIT of wine with a good steak dinner. For it, it seems to fit. Don't like it with most other foods, though, and not at all by itself.

Can't explain it. That's just me.

Standing Firm, you are absolutely wrong about not feeling the same effects later as you felt at first. The same few ounces have the exact same effect on me now they have always had. Don't know where you got your information unless you are talking about alcoholics.

In addition, I am quite sure you would feel that some people who are just having fun acting goofy are drunk! That happened to a few of us in high school when we chose to take our pizzas out of the pizzeria and eat them outside by the car on the curb. Got quite a lecture from a fellow quite convinced that because we were singing and having the pizzas that we were high on something, at least alcohol. None of us had had a drop.

 

No, I am not wrong, Helen. The body grows tolerant of more and more alcohol as the person drinks over the years. I had a friend in the 80's who could drink a case of beer and go to the airport and work on the commercial planes for Eastern Airlines. And before you say anything, records show not one of the planes he worked on ever went down in a crash the whole time he worked for the company.

The fact is, the body does build up a tolerance. The mind becomes numb to the fact that that one beer had effected him many years ago. My brother's mind was numb to the effects of his first beer, then his second and so on until it killed him three months ago.

Alcohol deceives... from the very first sip. Proverbs is right. Those that drink it are not wise.

 

Helen it sounds like you have Alcohol Flush Reaction. It is a condition where the body cannot break down ingested alcohol completely.

This flush is more often found in the face. I have noticed many people's faces become warm and red after drinking.



Here's a link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_flush_reaction

 

I know what it's called, Joe....I just have no idea why it hits my legs first!

Standing firm, I think the people you mention are dependent, or were, on alcohol, or such steady drinkers that they were drinking for the effect of the alcohol and not for any other reason.

There are many of us for whom your claims are not true at all. As far as wisdom goes, that is from the Lord and I have no hesitation at all about saying that He has never given me any indication, biblically or otherwise, that a glass of wine now and then is wrong. The verses you are choosing are taken out of context or are verses to which you apply your own meanings apart from the common meanings of the words.

That being said, I want to say something more on 'your side.' Since Adam and Eve, and most especially since Noah, our genetic heritage has been degenerating. As a human race now we carry an enormous genetic load (group of heritable mutations causing negative effects) that has built up over time. Therefore there will be more people who are more sensitive to more things, alcohol included. So to anyone who feels unsure about drinking wine or beer or anything else, stay away from it. If you know bad reactions run in your family, take a hint and leave the stuff alone.

The same goes for all kinds of things. I have a medical condition passed down from my father and which I passed on to my son. It is called paradoxic drug reactions. There are entire classes of drugs I dare not take because of the probable reactions. I don't have to try them to know they are dangerous for me, or at least extremely uncomfortable. Other people, however, have no problem with them at all. However to condemn any of them because I have a reaction, or because other people do, would be silly.

Wine is the same way. For some of us, many of us, there is no problem at all with small amounts occasionally. But for some even that is bad. Know your heritage and listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit in you if you are Christian, and then obey.

But when the subject is disputable, as this one most certainly is, don't judge others by the direction in which you are being led, which will be for your own benefit.

 

Um, Helen

 

Drunkardness is not hereditary, Helen. Has the occasional wine deceived you that much? Drunkardness can only be found in alcohol. From the first glass of alcoholic beverage, drunkenness has begun its course whether you want to believe it or not.

As far as wisdom goes, God gives to all men liberally. Ask Him for it and with it you can discern the truth in Scripture that God does indeed demand total abstinence in the life of a believer. It is wisdom from the Lord that allowed me to see alcohol is forbidden in the Scripture (I used to believe as you do, that it is ok to drink in moderation). God marvellously opened my eyes to the truth written in His Word concerning alcoholic beverage.

He will for you too if you will only allow Him.

 

There is a strong hereditary element in alcoholism, Standing Firm. Perhaps not in being drunk per se, but there is also a strong hereditary element in one's reaction to alcohol, just as with any other drug.

As far as asking the Lord for wisdom, I have, will, and do. However in this particular instance, the Bible is very clear and wine is not evil in and of itself any more than is salt, which can also kill in excess, or speech, which can and does destroy people daily.

If the Lord has led you away from alcohol, then it is for your benefit and there is no way in the world that I or anyone else should try to change your position. However, given what the Bible actually does say, in concert, it is wrong of you to try to condemn light or moderate alcoholic consumption in others.

 

Oh, I believe He has tried to show you... on many occasions. I believe you have just refused to see or hear what His Word says concerning alcohol in the life of a Believer.

 

Helen,

Hereditary element in alcohol? It is nothing hereditary at all. It is nothing but the lust of the flesh... that is it. It is nothing but the sin nature that causes one to rebel against God and disobey His Word.

Jonah, because of sin nature disobeyed God.
David
Cain,

and many many more gave in to the lust of the flesh and heeded not the warnings of God. Many still do the same today.

I don't condemn you or anyone else for drinking alcohol. The Bible has already judged that alcohol is not permitted. Scripture is clear concerning alcohol, but many will not hear or see. The eyes and ears are blinded and stopped to the truth until one wants to see and hear the truth.

 

Now, THAT is the truth. I have relatives who can go through a bottle of wine in one sitting, and not appear drunk at all. Funny story: My uncle had American relatives over for dinner one night and offered them drinks. What they didn't know, is that is is French custom to not stop drinking until your guest has had enough. So they drank, and drank, and drank, and he matched them drink for drink! By the time they went home, they were plastered, and he was just a little tipsy.
Sorry for the hijack, but this thread is going 'round and 'round making ME dizzy. Or was I drunk?

love,

Sopranette

 

Standing Firm,

You are absolutely wrong, medically, about there being no hereditary element in one's reacton to alcohol. Take for example the American natives -- they have very little tolerance for alcohol as a rule. It's a genetic thing. When I was younger I worked in a long-term hospital and we had mostly alcoholics. I've worked in the field, I've been in medical conferences regarding alcoholism, and I can guarantee to you that there is an hereditary element.

In the meantime, sir, I don't lust after it. I simply enjoy a bit of wine now and then.

investigations have shown that there can be a certain hereditary tendency for getting alcohol problems. This goes even more for sons of dependent fathers than for daughters. It is unknown how big the extra risk is, but children of alcohol addicts must keep in mind that they have a greater chance to develop alcohol problems. Some studies talk about a higher risk of about 50%.
from http://web4health.info/en/answers/add-alcohol-inherited.htm

According to a study by the research group "Alcoholism and drug addiction", of the University of Granada (Universidad de Granada), although there are no specific reasons to become an alcoholic, many social, family, environmental, and genetic factors may contribute to its development. Thanks to this study, researchers have shown that the lack of endorphin is hereditary, and thus that there is a genetic predisposition to become addicted to alcohol.
from http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/75738.php

Substantial scientific evidence has accumulated that both genetic and environmental factors predispose the development of alcoholism in certain individuals. Evidence has accumulated to indicate that alcoholism is a heterogeneous entity arising from multiple etiologies. The demonstrated role of genetics in increasing the risk of alcoholism has promoted the search for biological markers that could objectively identify individuals who are genetically predisposed to alcoholism. Identifying such markers could allow for early diagnosis, focused prevention, and differential and type-specific treatment of alcoholism. Promising markers have been provided by research in electrophysiology, endocrinology, and biochemistry. Recent advances in molecular genetics are offering prospects for direct analysis of the human genome to determine elements that provide predisposition to, and protection from, alcoholism. Recent advances in research and new knowledge gained by the alcoholism treatment community and the lay public are helping to diminish the societal damage caused by alcohol abuse and alcoholism and to change prevailing attitudes about them.
from http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pmcentrez&artid=1478142

Those are three out of thousands of possible references, sir, which indicate to me that your medical knowledge, as is your Bible knowledge, subject to your presuppositions and not following what is actually said in either case.

 

Have you ever had enough wine to be euphoric? Or are you an unmarried marriage counselor?

 

OK, which has more alcoholic content? New wine, or old wine?

 

I believe the alcohol content is the same, but not sure. New wine may have slightly less...but the main difference would be the vintage (think Noah getting drunk off of "new wine" shortly after planting his vineyard). New wine has the same vintage year as when it was squeezed. Think cheap wine sold in a box at a supermarket

That's why Scripture tells us that nobody says after having a better vintage wine "the new is better".

 

Depends on who you ask. Some people claim new wine has no alcohol, but that isn't supported by scripture. I'm guessing about the same. Why were people more likely to get drunk on new wine? Probably because it was cheaper.