A question that I hope to get an answer for

That is not what I said. However, Paul certainly explained the teachings of Christianity from the Pauline perspective. But, since Paul is the "originator" of the teaching, and Calvin is the originator of a doctrine about the teaching, then Calvins slant on Paul's teaching is Calvinism. Likewise with Arminius' doctrinal stance.

It's not a matter of tolarence, but rather a matter of revealed truth. The truth is that God set the banquet table, it is up to us to come to the table and eat. With the exception of Paul and perhaps Jonah, I do not see in scriptures where God "forces" man to do anything. God does punish man for disobedience and willful neglect of God's calling, but does not force man to believe in Him.

I don't know how you can make that conclusion, because it is obvious that both are true because there are adherents to both views.

If doctrine is "ABSOLUTE". Why is it that all mankind is not ABSOLUTELY SAVED? Throughout scriptures we find "God's will to be that all man are saved".

Back to this "every word must be...." bunk. The scriptures are the conveyanced of thoughts and ideas, not individual words. One must read the scriptures for the thought or idea conveyed and not what each individual word means, because word meaning is only applicable in its use.

Like I've oft stated, All the work of Salvation is completed. Jesus completed the work on the Cross and clearly stated it to be so.

When one sets out to buy a home, one may look at homes in either the plan stage, the construction stage or the completely finished stage. But no one moves into their New home until it is finished and ready to live in. Jesus finished the Work of redemption of mankind, but we can look at the plan in the old Testament, See the construction in the first few chapters of each of the Gospels, and view the finished work in the last few chapters of each of the Gospels. HOWEVER, No one can move into Salvation without acceptance of what has been done for them. That acceptance is called belief! Man must believe that the new home is actually their's before they can move into it. God does not order anyone to occupy that for which there is no acceptance! That would be the same as sin for God to do that!

The heart that does not believe cannot accept the finished work of God! Man's believing is God's method of Salvation, the scriptures clearly spell that out. Jesus said it several times to Nicodemus, and all through Jesus' words He continues to tell man that he must believe, in order to have salvation. Under the old covenant sins were atoned for by animal blood sacrifice. Jesus in a once for all sacrifice atoned for the sins of the world. Thus man's sins are not held against him for salvation. Man's works are as filthy rags to God so Works are not a factor in salvation. With neither works nor sins as factors for salvation that leaves only ONE factor for salvation and that is man's individual faith in God! It is the faith condition of each individual that determines whether or not the individual will be judged and cast into the lake of fire, or pass from death unto life bypassing judgement (John 3:18)! God calls, as a father calling his children in for the night, but we must respond, or be left out for the longest of nights, the eternal second death!

Quite simply, Calvin is wrong!

 

Hi dhfahrenkrug;
The first sentence is mine, then you reply.

Why would this be backwards ? I realize that the way to know what God wants is to study the Bible. You see I don't think you understood what I was saying. Probably my fault because I didn't make myself clear. Thus far in my studies of Calvinism which involves what I've been able to find on the net are five points called the tulip. The first called Total depravity. Has some problems in it as I see it. It is said that man being totally depraved because of sin, that man can't hear the gospel or understand the things of the spirit because he is spiritually dead. I read in Romans 3:10-18 about how this is said to be. I have a reference Bible and I checked out where this had been written as Paul had stated in verse 10. It referenced Psalms 14:1-3 and Psalms53:1-3.

To say the least I was disappointed in Paul. He used something said by a fool as truth. I noticed he didn't quote the whole scripture because they both say that a fool has said this. I'm not saying that Paul was wrong I haven't got enough facts to say that. But I wasn't pleased by this reference.

Then I began to question what was meant by being dead spiritually. I showed what I found thus far in another thread on the board. Dead only means separated and this separation is from God Now a physical death is different. This is when the spirit and the body is separated. Of coarse the body can't respond when it's dead but the spirit can respond because it is separated from God only. It is not incapacitated.
In fact thus far I haven't found one scripture that backs up this claim of unresponsiveness. This is where I think mans own Ideas have influenced Calvinism.

My Bible program has a search on it and it found so many references for total depravity, I was surprised. but not one proves unresponsiveness.

If you have any I'd like to read them for my self.

The other thing I found interesting is that the words Total Depravity do not appear together according to this program either. I used more than one key word to do my search. From Inability,Unresponsive,Disabled and so on but still haven't found anything that says man can't respond except for Romans 3:10-18.

Only Paul says this. Shouldn't a Biblical fact be established by more than one witness? I admit I can be wrong, I only started studying on my own just recently before it was always at church, where I had the pastor to answer questions for me.

I could be wrong about Total depravity it may be just as some have described it but I can't take mans word for it. I need to see it in the Bible. I will check out these books you referenced at my pastors library. I'll also look on the net for them. Then I'll let you know what I think.
May God Bless You.
Mike

 

The reasoning is simple and we have ample examples to prove its validity. Take Communism vs democracy as one example. Is it true that both are forms of Government,and that both have a reason for existing? Is it not true that both are true?

But I must point out however, that there are not many who are switching voluntarily from democracy to communism whereas every communist that has escaped into democracy would never go back to communism.

Then it is also true that in the case of Calvinism vs Arminianism, both are true, for the same reasons. Both are "ideologies", both have their reasons for existing. And truly there are far fewer who adhere to Calvinism than in Arminianism. There are far fewer who are switching from Arminianism to Calvinism than there are those who are switching from Calvinism to Arminianism.

Calvinism clearly defies the principle that Jesus spoke regarding salvation. {John 3:16) by standing on the doctrine that only the elect can believe in Jesus. Of course Calvinism cannot identify for even themselves who the elect are. Sure, they say that because they are "saved" they are of "the elect" and they had nothing to do with it, God did it all, even to the part that God imputed belief into them.

Non Calvinists, on the other hand, accept and believe what Jesus said in John 3:16 to be the whole truth and nothing but the truth, thus establishing Christianity. The Arminian believes that God established his plan of redemption for man before the foundation of the world, and that it would be through faith in God's only begotten son, born into the flesh of man, dying the death of a man, but rising from the grave in the power of God, victorious over death so that whosoever believeth in Him of their own will, shall have eternal life with Jesus. Individual belief in Jesus is the single criteria for eternal life, and individual belief is the only thing that man can do, as God already did all the rest. Yes, God alone saves man, but God only saves those who believe in Him, His son, and the Holy Spirit...They are one!

 

Regeneration does not precede belief!

It cannot, except that God force his will on the one being regenerated, and yet you say "of course God doesn't FORCE man to believe in him" Just what do you think "uninvited regeneration" is if not God forcing his will upon the one being regenerated?

Regeneration is: Unregenerate man being invited to believe in Jesus, and by belief, accepting Jesus! Regeneration is the change of persuasion that a man has in his heart regarding Jesus. When one's persuasion is changed from evil to good, one is regenerated. That cannot happen in any other manner than through belief in the presence of God's grace. SALVATION, the result of regeneration (being born again) is the FREE GIFT OF GOD to those who believe in His son, even on His son's name.

Calvinism says that being born again is the Free Gift of God. The Scriptures say that Salvation, the result of being born again, is the FREE GIFT of God.

 

Man's Justification is by Jesus' atoning death on the cross. It is the atonement that justifies man, else man must pay the penalty for sin, even the 'little white lie' is punishable by death! BUT! Jesus paid the penalty for ALL the sins of the world (mankind for all ages), thus man is not held accountable for (does not receive the penalty for) sins. JUSTIFIED!

Man's faith in the atoner, is what SANCTIFIES man in God's eyes. It is through our faith that we are Saved from the lake of fire, because Jesus said in John 3:18 that "the believer in Him is not judged". If "not judged", then one cannot be thrown into the Lake of Fire which follows judgment.

I read the same Apostles, and do not find in them what you seem to have. That brings us back to "which is true", to which you will adhere to your position that Calvinism is true while I adhere to the scriptures.

 

Faith is not a gift, it is a condition that only appears in mankind. Lydia had to have her heart opened because she was a staunch skeptic. She had her heart opened by the persuasive words that were spoken, in other words, she believed what she heard, but only after extensive explanation of the meaning.

I do not make the claim that faith comes first then regeneration. I am saying, and hold to the truth, that changing from non-belief in Jesus to belief in Jesus is regeneration! After regeneration faith sets in and grows in strength by the nurture and admonition of the teachings of the Pauline letters, and those of Peter, John, Jude, etc. And, I say that according to scriptures, FAITH ALONE is what saves! Faith can only come while God's grace toward his creation prevails.

 

ILUVLIGHT, you are correct, The scriptures do not include all mankind when speaking of depravity. However, every human dips into the well of depravity at times in his life, but he does not dwell there.

Every human has the God given ability to believe, therefore every human already possesses what is necessary to accept the truth of Scripture. The spiritual matters require the light of the Holy Spirit for understanding, and the Holy spirit abides with those who do believe in Jesus. Thus is it the believers who can understand the things of the spirit.

The scriptures do not state that the Holy Spirit ever rests upon or dwells within the unbeliever. Therefore How is it possible for the Holy Spirit to "regenerate" the unbeliever?

 

Hi dhfahrenkrug;
you said;

In italics above you said we are given faith. How are we given faith? I only ask because I've read that faith comes by hearing the word of God. The only free gift I'm aware of is eternal life.

I'm reminded of what the Lord did when the apostles ask Him to increase there faith in Luke17:5. From verse 6 through 10 Christ told them a parable about the mustard seed. This increased there faith. They heard the word and there faith was increased.
May God Bless You.
Mike

 

Hi Yelsew;
To regenerate something means to "make new". This is what happend to me when I believed I was made new. I have asked for references to prove that we are regenerated before we believe else where and have yet to get any scriptures that prove it. I have asked for scripture to prove man is totally deraved but haven't gotten any except for Romans 3:10-18 and this seems suspect because I was taught in church that we shouldn't accept the testimony of one man about Bible facts. Paul and a fool are the only ones so far and I have to disregaurd the fool because Paul is quoting him in Romans 3:10. I'm a little affraid to say that it doesn't exsist because sure enough someone might be able to prove it. I'm can't believe something like this unless it can be shown to be fact.Isn't it true that a fact is proven by two or three witnesses. Well it makes sense to me.
May God Bless You.
Mike

 

Calvinists rely on Romans 3:10+ as the basis for the doctrine of "Total Depravity". In a Cross-referenced Bible, there is no single scripture that Paul quoted, but rather several separate ideas and concepts, mostly segments of prayers by David to God. That is, David's opinion of his enemies. All leaders call those who are "nipping at their heels" by a variety of names, giving them a variety of derogatory characteristics. David is no different. He was a man under pressure, with a number of enemies who would love to have exterminated David, or at minimum made his life miserable. So Do these scriptures that Paul quoted, support the doctrine of "Total Depravity" as presented by the Calvinists.

First, Paul's letter to the Romans chapter 3, verses 1-21. Followed by the scriptures from which Paul extracted his quote.

The SCRIPTURES THAT PAUL's quote DEPRAVITY come from with their Context:
Psalm 14:1-3
psalm 5:9
Psalm 140:3
psalm 10:7
Proverbs 1:16
Isaiah 59:7-8
Psalm 36:1

Does this say that each of all of them is "totally depraved"? or does is say that none is "perfect" or none is "righteous" or that All have sinned?

Does this say that Everyone is Totally Depraved? Or that there are some who are evil and lie in wait to snare David? If the latter, there is no "Total Depravity" support here.

Is David saying that all mankind is Totally Depraved? No, he is saying there are evil men who would do harm to him, and he's asking God to protect him. How many of us have not prayed similarly?

Again, There is no support here for "Total Depravity"

Again, no support for "Total Depravity"

Even Isaiah in this indictment of the Jews, leaves room for righteousness among men.

Au Contraire! Opposition to "Total Depravity" exists in scripture! Opposition to Regeneration prior to belief also exists in scripture.

 

Being a man after God's own heart does not make one God, nor does being born in iniquity make one "Totally Depraved"

 

Hi frogman;

My hope is in Jesus Christ there is no other that I know of. In order to have this hope we must know of Him and believe in Him.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If Jesus is the life then in order to choose life as in

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Then by believing Him we are saved from death and our sins.And through us our family may also believe because of our witness

Is there anything that can compare to the Love of our God.I don't think so.

May God Bless You;
Mike

[ September 26, 2003, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: ILUVLIGHT ]

 

Hi Yelsew;
You're right none of these scriptures support the idea of Total depravity. I know man is a sinnful creature but this doesn't make him unable to respond. At least I haven't seen it yet.
May God Bless You.
Mike

 

Frogman, Regardless of what David wrote, Conception is not the source of iniquity! It is the source of perpetuated life. Conception in many cases may be the result of an iniquitous act, but it is not iniquity. There is no scripture that says that life is iniquity, for the source of life is itself HOLY GOD! Iniquity does not come from HOLINESS!

To think otherwise is to accuse God of iniquity, for He is the author of life. He is the only source for Life eternal. ALL else leads to death!