A question that I hope to get an answer for

I don't believe in total depravity, either. I favor Arminianism over Calvinism, but my disbelief in total depravity makes me "not quite" an Arminian.

 

This is perhaps what Paul meant:

In Romans 12.1-2 What do ya think, is it possible for a Christian to go one way or the other? BTW, I have never said that believers do not continue in depravity, it just cannot say to be total in this condition, if so be the Spirit of God dwells in us.

Bro. Dallas

 

I would say you are correct. A child of God will be brought to humble repentance for sin(s) as long as they are in the flesh.

But I don't know that this repentance is necessarily something that I must see in order to confirm or verify it is real.

I also don't think this is what you meant in your post. I just added it here so you guys would know my thoughts on this.

Sometimes to follow God is to know that he is not an unjust judge performing acts because he is tired of hearing his children cry to him because of the wrongs committed against them.

It took me a while to realize that when an act is committed against me it is not personal to me, but is in truth a sin against the Son of God, I believe this is true of Christiain or un believer alike.

I would say it is much sadder to see this manifested in the life of a professed believer.

Bro. Dallas

 

Yelsew Posted to Mortenview:
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Not true, it says that eternal security is given to those who have faith. For those who have faith are not judged and cast into the lake of fire, but pass from death unto life with Jesus Christ.

If one can stop believing, one can lose faith! It is that simple.
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Now ... If it is "that simple" then back it up with Scripture.... not retoric .... not philosophy... not opinion ... but Scripture.

I would love to talk with you or evn send you some booklets on this for sake of time in posting.

I have read, many times, the Norris - Wallace debate from 1934 where 4 Q? were debated.... one of them was dealing with Eternal Security.
J.Frank Norris of 1st Baptist Ft. Worth debated Dr. Wallace, head of the C of Christ denomination.
Dr. Wallace was soundly defeated and there is a record of that.

I have much other info... I have debated it also and have never had anyone prove from Scripture that anyone who is saved by the Grace of God can so sin as to lose thier salvation.
However, please furnish me with Scripture showing that a saved person can so sin as to lose their salvation.

 

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REPLY:
CONTEXT: Not dealing with salvation nor the loss of Salvation. CONTEXT deals with respect of persons; keeping the Law.
Vs 12: judged by the Law of Liberty.
The law of God in the hand of Christ IS the law of liberty. We are FREED from it as a covenant.
FREED from its curse and terrors.
Christians will be at the "judgement seat of Christ" = bema seat = where there will be rewards and loss of rewards NOT salvation, that is not the question at that judgement.
The Great White Throne Judgement is where ALL unsaved will stand before God etc. etc.

Go back to Galatians 2:16 .. "...a man is not justified by the works of the law ...."
Vs 21 "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal. 3:19: The law was addend because of transgressions ...sins....
Vs 24 The LAW was our schoolmaster = teacher = to teach us what? That we are all sinners and need to be saved.
Notice Vs 24 ...."to bring us to Christ ..."
Vs 25 "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

Liberty is the freedom to serve the Lord. He freed us from the law... we were dead in tresspasses and sins...what can dead men do to serve the Lord? Nothing ... notta thing...
He gave us LIFE ... eternal life. It began the split second we receive Jesus Christ into our hearts to save us and we have asked Him for forgiveness of sins.

Liberty frees us to serve Him ... we are alive in Christ. Freedon NOT to live as we please... but FREE to do what He wants us to do. We could not do that BEFORE we were saved ... again... we were DEAD and had NO spiritual life.

John 3:15 & 16 ... the words "eternal" "everlasting" are both the same Greek word: "aionios" meaning "perpetual" used of past and FUTURE as well; "Forever"

To lose it, you would have to change the meaning of the word "eternal" & "everlasting."

Thanks for the verses.

Got some that tell us that a saved man can lose it???

If you can lose it... do you now have a "lost saved man" or a "saved lost man."

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out."

John 10:27-29 ... God is greater than ALL. That, my friend, means you, the devil etc.
"... and no man is able to pluck them out of my hand."

Hevrews 9:12 "... he entered in ONCE into the holy place ..."
9:28 "So Christ was ONCE offered to bear the sins of many ..."
Hebrews 10:10 "By the which we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Christ ONCE FOR ALL."

 

Arminians claim Total Depravity ? Really. That is news to me, please show me one Arminian website with Arminius' writing where he admits man is totally depraved. If there are those among his disciples of today who claim total depravity, then they are as confused as the lesbo or the homo who couldn't decide what gender he/she actually has.

 

Dear ILUVLIGHT,

It would be interesting to know how you see the present condition of a fallen man's heart. In other words, how do you see the Bible defining or describing 'Total Depravity'?

It is true, that both sides claim Total Depravity! However, they both have a different definition of it though!!!

1. For an Arminian, 'Total Depravity' means that man has lost most of its original power or ability to please God and to obey His commandments. Therefore, most of his actions are sinful, however, man is still capable, or able to believe in the Gospel. The power to believe is still within man's own heart without any special/divine action generating that 'faith'.
2. For a Calvinist, 'Total Depravity' means that man has lost all of its original power or ability to please God and to obey His commandments. Therefore, unless God comes with a special/sovereign grace generating a new heart in man and consequently giving him power (or will) to believe the Gospel, man is so sinful that he will never by himself believe in Christ!

Note: even Free Will is claimed by both!!
Just one Scripture will suffice for now:
Gen 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

The above is God's direct description of man's heart right before He sent the flood on the Earth. It sounds pretty depraved to me when He says that every intent of the thoughts of [mans] heart was ONLY EVIL CONTINUALLY.
I realize that our pride finds great difficulty accepting this doctrine because of the very fact that we are sinful and surrounded by sin every day. For a pure, perfect and HOLY God however, the situation is quite different. And that's only one Scripture verse! There are tons of more references proving this truth! Let us know if you need more Scripture reference!
Question: did man's heart in any way change since the flood?

Hope this helps, God bless
Felix

 

Dear Mike,

Honestly, I don't see the difference. How would 'EVERY IMAGINATION OF THE THOUGHTS...' be so much different than 'every intent of the thoughts' I don't know!!

I do not want to sound crude, but if 'EVERY IMAGINATION' of yours is still evil 'after becoming Saved', you might have a problem!! Of course believers still sin (have evil imaginations OCCASIONLY) but they are not in continuous (hence 'EVERY') rebellion against God!

Just a few verses in reply:

Jer 13:23 'Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? {Then} you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil.'
The above is a rhetorical question, the expected answer is a big NO. Obviously the leopard can not change his spots. When he can (which is never), ONLY THEN can we also do good...

Jer 17:9 'The heart R885 is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?
Your favorite translation (KJV which is one of mine too ) actually says 'wicked' and not 'sick'.

John 3:3 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'
Note that the New Birth preceeds everything else.
1. New Birth 2. Able to 'see the kingdom' 3. Repent. Man wants to reverse or mix up the order, when they say that man sees the kingdom, repents, and only after than comes the new birth!

Eph 2:1 'And you were dead in your trespasses and sins'...also Col 2:13

Maybe this will help: ...probably the most powerful of all:
Rom 8:6-8 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
If the above quote is not enough to silence all of us concerning the state of an unregenerate man, than I don't know what is. How can anything and I mean ANYTHING done by man who is the flesh please God?

Rom 14:23 'and whatever is not from faith is sin.'

Hope all of this helps
Felix

 

ILUVLIGHT posted November 08, 2003 8:55p.m.
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Sorry it took so long to get back to your post....I don't have a lot of time for these forums, but I do enjoy them. Then ... I couldn't find this topic until I took a lengthy search.

I appreciate your replies, but let me comment on your reply... Mortenview
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Hi mortenview;
I apreciate your post but I'm still not convinced. Maybe if you could provide scripture that is clearly saying that a man cannot change there mind or loose faith. I have to say that these verses are very clear.

You stated in your reply _________________________
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
This is not just a warning it's clear that Christ meant what he said.

This is the last verse in this chapter and I didn't take it out of context I read the whole parable. If our sins can be put back on us then we are fallen from grace. I believe it's true no man can pluck me out of His hand but God can cast me out for unforgiveness.If we can accept a gift we certainly can throw it away as well.
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MY REPLY TO THIS ABOVE COMMENTS
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Yes, you did take it out of context...
No where does it imply falling from grace.
The parable deals with forgiveness NOT salvation.
Christians are commanded to forgive.
God cannot cast you out for unforgiveness, as you stated above.
John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out."

NOW ... Peter ask the Q? in vs 21 ... "...how oft shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? till seven times?"
Vs 22, the Lord teaches us that we should continually forgive ... "... but until 70 X's 7"
(my emphasis on the #)
Luke 17 also has this same parable.
Here, in vs 5, the Apostles said: "...Lord, increase our faith."
Hmmmm..... seems like we are dealing with faith .... NOT salvation.
Hmmmm..... seems like we are dealing with Christians forgiving each other, NOT salvation.

Vs 34 - Delivered to tormentors ... till ... he should pay all that was due ...
If "tormentors" means hell ... then you now have a "purgatory" & there ain't such a place.
Delivered TILL HE SHOULD PAY ALL ....
Remember ...Whom the Lord loves, He chastens.
Then ... there is the judgement or bema seat of Christ. But ..... You cannot find losing salvation here.
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NEXT, YOU WROTE ...
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The Bible says;
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briars is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

To me it would seem that if there were no such thing as falling from grace why even mention it.

I would like to believe that I couldn't fall from grace but as I see it this isn't so.
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MY REPLY TO THE ABOVE
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You have just PROVED my point .... or ... shall I say .... the Bible's point.

Notice what you wrote or copied: Heb. 6:4
"FOR IT IS IMPOSSIBLE..... Ahhhhh .... when somethings IMPOSSIBLE .... you just can't do it.
What's IMPOSSIBLE??????
VS 6 FALLING AWAY
Back to VS 4 .... Paul, here, is giving a hypothetical.... They were enlightened ...."shine, brighten up, illumenate"
They have also TASTED the heavenly gift .....
Romans 6:23 "The GIFT OF GOD is ETERNAL LIFE ...
Tasted means "they experienced it" OR they are saved folks.
They were MADE PARTAKERS of the HOLY GHOST ....

Now .... let's see here .... TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT = SALVATION.
MADE PARTAKERS.... Can a lost person have the Holy Ghost????? I think not.
Paul is teaching, here, that IF a saved person could ... VS 6 ... fall away, in order for that said person to get saved again .... they would have to crucify jesus all over again .... that, my friend, puts Jesus to an open shame.

Hebrews 9:25-25, 28, 12, etc. Jesus died ONCE
Hebrews 10:18, "... there is no more offering for sin."
Paul says that you can't lose it, but IF
vs 6 "IF"= a supposition in the Greek = supposing they shall fall away ... you couldn't get it back.
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Mortenview

 

As to the last 2 posts ....

The pointless thread of the car etc. is not applicable to eternal security; but rather chasing a rabbit & trying to throw a fella offn the trail.

As for FAITH and Salvation:

It takes faith to be saved but there is also opperative faith .... faith that the born again Christian needs everyday. That faith is not getting saved all over again.

The apostles said: Lord, increase our faith... they were not referring to salvation.

The point of Scripture re/forgiving etc. again, does not speak of losing salvation etc.

You and/or others have tried to refute it with argumentation, but I have not seen scripture to back up your claims.

 

I am posting to Yelsew's last 2 posts to me and take them one at a time on this post.

Yelsew posted:
NO FAITH? = NO SALVATION!

If one can ceace to believe in anything, one can also cease to believe in Jesus. If one ceases to believe, that is the same as losing ones FAITH, because we do not have faith in that for which we have no belief...that is simply impossible.
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REPLY:

First, I must say that you are ignorant on what the Bible teaches. I never said what you wrote above; you are guilty of putting words into my mouth or post.... very dishonest of you.

Also, you made a statement, but failed to back it up with Scripture.

The Bible teaches a lot about faith ... faith to move mountains ... now... according to you ....your statement to me in the above... it is Salvation to move mountains .... come now and be honest.

Faith to believe and to be saved is different than faith that we need to operate every day of our Christian lives.

For example: For one to lose their salvation, they must find the faith of Christ to be faulty.

Now, we must remove the element of faith. In order for a saved person to lose their salvation, we must remove man’s faith in the substitutionary death on the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ; we must remove our faith in His resurrection from the grave.

Keep in mind here, it is not our production of faith, or even a "great faith", enough for God to accept you. We are to simply believe (faith) and then let the faith of Christ work in us. Notice Galatians 2:20: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (emphasis mine). This is reliance on Christ to keep us saved; reliance upon Him to live His life in us and through us. Notice what the Apostle Paul says: I live by the faith of the Son of God. It is His faith ... not Paul’s; not mine; not yours. What saves us? The shed blood of Christ according to Scriptures; His burial according to Scriptures; His resurrection from the grave, according to Scriptures. Everything that Jesus did and does today, is according to Scripture. It is our faith in what He did, not what I did or what you did.
Next, in the Book of Ephesians, chapter 2:8-9 we read the following: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." That faith is not "of yourselves: it is the gift of God." God’s gift is freely offered and must be freely received. Romans 6:23 says "... but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Notice, it is a GIFT; Ephesians 2:8-9 says it is a GIFT. Someone can offer you a gift, say at Christmas or for your birthday etc. and you have the choice - free will - to either accept it or to reject it. For example, John 1:12: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" (emphasis mine).

Again, in order to remove the element of faith, a person losing their salvation would have to find the faith of Christ to be faulty. Let’s go to Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Here, we read that, a man is justified. The word "justified" in the Greek language of the Bible is: dikaiow dikaioo, dik-ah-yo'-o. It means: to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent:--free, justify(-ier), be righteous. The element of faith that saves us is "but by the faith of Jesus Christ." This is not faith IN Christ but it is the faith OF Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:22 tells us: "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" The Greek word for "righteousness" is: dikaiosunh dikaiosune, dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay - equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification: --righteousness. Very similar word as the Greek word for justified and has the basic same meaning .... it means that we are saved - saved by what? Romans 3:22 tells us that the righteousness of God is BY THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST.

I quote Pastor Reagan, it in his book, at this point regarding the faith of Christ. "Although you must believe to the best of your ability, the perfect faith which provides for you a perfect salvation is the faith of Christ. This means that there is no need to "pray through" or "hold on" in order to get saved. We come to God in simple belief, and He completes our faulty faith with the perfect faith of Christ. This also means that you cannot become lost by losing faith. Although your faith may waver at times, your salvation is based on the faith of Christ. Therefore, the only way to lose your salvation is to find the faith of Christ to be faulty."
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Next: Yelsew posted:

Mortenview, Your approach to religion seems to be that if it is not contained in scripture, it is not applicable to religion. If that is the case, you'd better not drive a car to church, because cars are no mentioned in scripture!

No you can't take a train, a plain or any other modern device. You must use a horse drawn chariot.

You cannot carry a Bible, you must carry a full set of scrolls instead.

Rediculous? Perhaps, but not more rediculous than your insistance on scripture only.

God gave us all a brain by which we are to think through the issues. Use yours will you?
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My REPLY:

Now, here, you again, cannot back up anything by use of Scripture but rather turn to insults. I find that pretty small of you. I have answered posts with Scripture and have been kind to those I have replied to until your last two posts to me.

Yes; Scripture only. Your assertion that not everything that Jesus did -- the world could not contain the books that would hold such info. Yes, Jesus did a lot of things, but what was included in the Cannon of Scriptures was not fables nor unwritten stories.

Your point leave open to believe whatever you want to believe and it opens the door for extreme liberialism in theology.

Yes, Scripture only. We are not to add to nor take away from Scripture... you seem to want to open the door to adding.... since everything Jesus did was not written down.

NOW.... just how does that point of yours apply to eternal security? It doesn't.

NOW ... Have you a special revealation from God as to what was not written down in the Bible?
If so... please enlighten us as to this great phenomina. I await your special revelation from God.

You replied to me: "God gave us all a brain by which we are to think through the issues. Use yours will you?"

Hmmm ...I have been using mine all along .... waiting for you to use yours. Still, you use NO SCripture.