A Rag Doll

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. Van

    Van
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    I have an Uncle who was badly injured in WWII. His recovery took more than a year. During part of his rehab, he stitched together a rag doll. But the pieces did not quite fit. Never the less, his sister treasured that doll until the day she died, because her love for her little brother was boundless.

    Recently, in other thread, some have made a valiant effort to stitch together Calvinism and non-Calvinism, i.e. Arminianism.

    One person posted the following:

    I agree with much in this effort, but disagree on several points.

    Here are my problems:

    1) Is it wrong to believe fallen mankind is able to seek God and trust in Christ, in light of God revealing Himself and providing the gospel of Christ?

    2) Did God really choose some foreseen individuals with or without foreseen faith when He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world? If this was a corporate election then God did not choose any specific individuals, just the target group of His redemption plan, those who would be redeemed by His Redeemer.

    3) Is our faith in Christ really instilled supernaturally, i.e. a gift of faith? What does scripture say, 1 Corinthians 12:3 and Ephesians 2:8?

    4) What does "no man can say Jesus is Lord with the Holy Spirit" mean? (1 Corinthians 12:3).

    5) Does choosing to seek God and trust in Christ make salvation dependent on man and not on God?

    6) Does Christ making it possible for all men to be saved mean He does not actually saved all who are saved?

    7) Does the "from our point of view" dodge really resolve the conflict over when we were chosen, after we believed or before creation?

    8) Does scripture say no one would ever make the right choice unless God supernaturally intervened and caused that choice? (Revelation 3:20, Joshua 24:15, Hebrews 3:7-8, 2 Corinthians 3:5)

    9) Is Calvinism's only err the cart before the horse sequencing of choosing some individuals for salvation then sending Christ to die as a ransom for all?

    10) Do Arminians err when they put God's choice of individuals after they believe?
     
  2. Van

    Van
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    1) Matthew 23:13 tells of unregenerate men who were seeking God for they were actually "entering heaven" when they were blocked by false teaching. Thus some fallen men, when given the grace of God's revelation are able to respond some of the time.

    2) The reason the election of Ephesians 1:4 must be corporate is that several verses (2 Thessalonians 2:13; James 2:5, 1 Peter 2:9-10, and 1 Corinthians 1:26-30) indicate God chooses us for salvation individually during our lifetime after we believe in Christ. It is irrational to either nullify the majority verses on the topic in favor of one vague verse that probably is corporate because of the "chosen in Him" rather than chosen phrase.

    3) No one can "say" except by the Spirit Jesus is Lord. The idea is not our ability to utter the phrase, the folks of Matthew 7:21-23 said "Lord Lord." No the idea is that we cannot say with truth that Jesus is Lord of our life unless we have been born again, and indwelt with the Spirit of Christ. And no one who is born again will say Jesus is accursed. Therefore 1 Corinthians 12:3 provides no support for the "gift of presalvation faith."

    Next we have Ephesians 2:8 which does not say faith is a gift, it says salvation is the gift of God by grace through faith. Our faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand. Romans 5:2. It is God who credits our faith as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5,24.

    4) See first part of answer number 3.

    5) Does choosing to seek God and will to be saved make salvation dependent upon man? No, Romans 9:16 tells us salvation does not depend upon the man that wills or runs but upon God. But this verse does teach a man can will to be saved. Something Calvinism denies.

    6) Here we have the false choice, if Jesus became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world (1 John 2:2) that means He does not save each and every person given to Him by God. No, the answer is both, He provides the opportunity for salvation, and He provides salvation for those who "receive" the reconciliation.

    7) The "from our point of view" does not resolve whether we were chosen individually before the foundation of the world, or chosen during our lifetime through faith in the truth. It embraces the paradox, rather than resolving it by coming to the conclusion that the election before creation was corporate, not individual.

    8) Revelation 3:20 tells us it is God who makes the first move, He reveals Himself (knocks at the door) but them some of us hear and open that door. In Joshua 24:15 we see that some men find it disagreeable to serve the Lord, but others, including Joshua and his house choose to serve the Lord. In Hebrews 3:7-8, tells that some men hardened their hearts [by the practice of sin] against the Lord. Thus they initially had the capacity to hear and understand the Lord, and respond to the milk of the gospel. In 2 Corinthians 3:5, says our "adequacy" comes from God. Thus it too teaches some of us can receive God's revelation. So four for four, not a shred of support for the premise we cannot seek God and trust in Christ, given the light of God's revelation in His gospel.

    9) No Calvinism's sequence of events described in scripture gets the cart before the horse again and again. But the primary problem, that which drives all the rest, is the assumption that the election of Ephesians 1:4 is individual, not corporate. This drives atonement limited by who Christ died for, rather than who receives the reconciliation. This drives the regeneration before faith view, rather than God choosing us through faith, saving us by grace through faith view of many scriptures, such as John 1:12-13. Again it is irrational to accept an assumed meaning of one vague verse, and use that assumption to nullify the balance of verses on the topic.

    10) No, Arminians do not err when they put God's choice of individuals after they believe. But they do err when they assume, with Calvinists, that the Election of Ephesians 1:4 was of individuals with or without foreseen faith. Our individual election occurs during our lifetime after we come to faith, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Peter 2:9-10, James 2:5, and 1 Corinthians 1:26-30.
     
  3. agedman

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    The chapter opens with these words of warning about the self-righteousness of the religious rulers - that is to follow what they tell you to do, but do not follow their example.
    Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.
    It is within that perspective that the "woe" parts follow. Within the woe parts is:
    13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 [Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.]
    Do the scribes and pharisees actually eat widow's houses?

    They (scribes and Pharisees) do not have the ability to "prevent" the entry of those "who are entering to go in" in the sense of keeping such out, but that the scribes and Pharisees do not teach entrance as allowed except under their terms. Just as the religious heathen of this day deny the truth and attempt to pervert the gospel.


    The reason you desire to read corporate election is that you choose to do so.

    There is no reason to consider that in EVERY instance God's dealing with humankind has always been through selecting specific people for specific responsibility. That is held accurate throughout the OT (ie: Noah, Abraham, Judges, Samuel, Saul, David, Jonah, Daniel, Isaiah...) and in the NT (ie: John the Baptist, disciples (apostles), Saul (Paul), ...)

    The ONLY corporate salvation will happen at the beginning of the millennium when the political/spiritual Israel will be melded into the body of Christ and as one become the Bride of Christ presented to the Father.




    Nor does 1 Corinthians 12:3 discredit such a view.

    Human faith cannot be "credited for righteousness" for there is NOTHING righteously credible in any heathen.

    "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God"

    This verse (above) shows that Faith (salvation faith) is NOT innate, but "comes by hearing," and that hearing must be "by the Word of God."

    The view humankind fallen frail faith is capable of any righteousness is attempting to place some work of man scheme into the salvation that is totally of God through Christ.



    How can you ignore the plan Scriptures that state clearly - "NO MAN SEEKS GOD."

    From the Psalms:
    "God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
    To see if there is anyone who understands. Who seeks after God."
    Repeated in Romans:
    "There is none who understands,
    There is none who seeks for God;"
    There is NO proof that the fallen depraved will of the heathen creature can, of its own nature, will to be saved. That just isn't in the Scriptures.


    See next post for continued rebuttal.
     
    #3 agedman, Jun 24, 2013
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  4. agedman

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    Some can accept this teaching, and as I have read of Spurgeon, he does seem to teach that Christ's blood is sufficient for all but effective for only those who believe. I see this as problematic - for either the blood is applied to all, with unlimited effect for all, or it is limited to only those who believe.

    Christ saves EVERY person the Father gives - that is what is stated in Scriptures - "All the the Father gives me, will come to me."

    The determiner then is not Christ, not humankind, but God.

    The position is clearly stated in Scriptures, and therefore, the blood of Christ is not for all. As the serpent lifted up in the wilderness, only those given the capability to look did not die (for some by sickness or self-will did not look), only those given the capability and the will to look did not die.


    Fortunately, there is no "paradox" - accept in the mind of those who are corporate salvation holders. Can you show one example in Scriptures where God saved corporate and then individuals? No - it is always the other way - first the individual and through that individual the extended group (ie: Noah- family, Abraham - start of two nations, Moses - Israel, David - unification of Israel, ...)




    There is NOTHING about Rev. 3:20 that is applicable to the heathen. The verse is DIRECTLY related to the church that considers they are right with God by having health and wealth, but left Christ outside the door.

    Pharaoh- had ears to hear but God hardened his already hard heart. That is he confirmed the hardness.

    Humankind needs no help hardening the heart - it is the state of the natural unregenerate man.

    Your view of support is not only frail, but you have taken Scriptures out of context that do NOT support your view.

    That is truly sad.

    It is only irrational when you have to manipulate to some "corporate" view of salvation. Without that view - such verses are in complete harmony and serve to not only enhance, but to actually show how very correct and appropriate the limit to atonement.



    Unfortunately, we have disagreed on these verses, before, and you keep posting as if you hold the banner of truth.

    You don't - I do. :)




    Actually, folks Van is a good scholar, but in this area we are in disagreement. He believes in "corporate election" and I don't.

    The view Van holds obliges that he connect a certain scheme to the Scriptures and as I have shown above, not always is that scheme validated unless the Scriptures selected are yanked from context.

    However, in context and with the view of no corporate but individual election, those Scriptures remain securely snug in the context.
     
    #4 agedman, Jun 24, 2013
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  5. Van

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    Quite a long sidestep, the men were entering heaven, thus they were seeking God, something Calvinism denies. Please address the issue rather than discuss something off topic.

    Did I ever mention corporate salvation? No, but you keep bringing it up misrepresenting my views. Do you deny corporate election.
    Perhaps you should google it. :)

    1 Corinthians 12:3 provides no support for the gift of faith view. Calvinism is based on unwarranted assumptions such as the fictional presalvation gift of instilled faith.

    Here we have a straight up denial of Romans 4:4-5,24.

    Yet another strawman, of course faith comes from hearing the word of God, the gospel of Christ. That is not in dispute. No one said the "fallen frail faith" of any person had any righteousness, what scripture says is God credits it as righteousness. He turns the pigs ear into a silk purse.


    When does no man seek God. All the time. Yes no man seeks God all the time. At any time? No some men seek God some of the time. This is shown by Matthew 23:13. So your view ignores the plain teaching of scripture. You make assumptions and add to the text "at any time." Not how it reads. It the context of the passage the idea is no one seeks God when they are sinning and everyone sins. Thus "no one seeks God" supports everyone sins.

    1) God looked down to see if there were any who understood. If no one could understand, why did He look?

    2) The wicked fools who say there is no God sure did not understand and did not seek God.

    3) Read Psalm 14:5, which says some men had sought God as a refuge. So the very passage you cite demonstrates some "fallen depraved heathen creatures" seek God some of the time.
     
    #5 Van, Jun 24, 2013
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  6. Van

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    All true, we are in agreement!

    Yes the position is clearly stated in scripture. God desires all men to be saved. Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. Thus the blood of Christ was shed for all men. To deny this is silly. Now do all men receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's sacrifice on the cross. No. So Christ provides the opportunity for all men to be saved, but only those who receive the reconciliation are saved.


    I am going to say this one more time. Agedman, I never, repeat never, repeat never, not once, repeat not once said anyone was SAVED by CORPORATE Salvation. Your claims that I did is slander, slander, slander. Stop it. The corporate election, repeat corporate election of Ephesians 1:4 did not save anyone. Only those given to Christ are saved, and that happens during our lifetime. When God puts us in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, it is an individual election. Why this is beyond your comprehension boggles my mind.

    Yet another straight up denial of scripture. Jesus knocked and some person opened the door teach we respond to the revelation of God.

    How did Pharaoh or God harden a heart that already suffered from total spiritual inability? So again, the very verse you cite teaches Calvinism is mistaken. LOL

    Yet another straight up denial of scripture, people harden their hearts by the practice of sin, thus their hearts did not start out completely hardened, and God hardens hearts, Romans 11, to prevent people from responding to the gospel for a time.

    I took nothing out of context. This is just a generalized disparagement.

    This seemingly deliberate effort to misrepresent my view is very sad indeed.

    Well praise be to God, Agedman did not say corporate salvation, but said corporate election. Well done.
    But I hasten to had, I not only believe Ephesians 1:4 refers to our corporate election before creation, I believe 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Peter 2:9-10 and 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 refer to our individual election for salvation through faith in the truth.
     
    #6 Van, Jun 24, 2013
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  7. agedman

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    This is staying on topic.

    What did the religious zealots of Christ's day teach? That by living (keeping the law) heaven was available.

    What Christ is stating is the same as he presented to the rich ruler who kept all the law.

    Plus He is pointing out that not even the scribes and pharisees kept the whole law.

    There is no indication that Christ is stating that this group had the truth of salvation that they could offer to the masses at mass.


    I have made my post rather plain on "corporate" election. And yes in the section that I quoted from YOUR post it is mentioned as a main point.

    I would state that "my view" of salvation (stated briefly: Salvation is not parsed into pieces, but is a whole in which God instills whatever is necessary that one in whom He chooses will be saved.) It is then that from the very first Godly sorrow (conviction) that person is experiencing salvation at work - a work begun from the foundation of the world.

    Not all calvinistic thinkers hold to this view.



    Only in your mind, Van.

    Certainly, Rev 3 is popular with preachers to present a scheme in which humankind is involved in salvation, but why don't you start a thread and post that scripture and describe how THAT verse applies to the heathen and the rest of the previous chapters do not.

    That Scripture is particular to the church and ONLY applicable to the church - the last church - the one that has all their hope in what is false. As such that part of Rev. has nothing to do with Romans 4.


    Again, you attempt to use a verse that does not support your view.

    See the explaination above, and you will see that "seeking God" is not a natural condition of humankind.

    Certainly, all humankind have a form of religion, but that is not a "seeking God" in salvation. In every experience of human riligion the expressions are an attempt to appease for what the person knows is against the law of God- be it the Sacrifices of the OT, the Native Americans offering of thanks for a kill, the enlightenment sought by far eastern religions, or the Muslim Jihad seeking allah's favor.

    But, seeking 2 Corinthians
    10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
    Why not? Does not the Scriptures teach that God searches out the hidden and secret places of even the heart?

    Are you attempting to prove God had no business looking?

    Are you trying to prove your view by excluding something God could do if it pleased Him


    NO it does not!!!!!!

    Here is ALL of Psalm 14:
    14 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
    They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
    There is no one who does good.
    2 The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
    To see if there are any who understand,
    Who seek after God.
    3They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;There is no one who does good, not even one.

    4 Do all the workers of wickedness not know,
    Who eat up my people as they eat bread,
    And do not call upon the Lord?
    5 There they are in great dread,
    For God is with the righteous generation.
    6 You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted,
    But the Lord is his refuge.

    7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion!
    When the Lord restores His captive people,
    Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad

    Do you not see the contrast between those "workers of wickedness" who actually would pay no heed nor "call upon the Lord" and those who have the Lord as their refuge?

    There is no "seeking God" by the heathen, and this Psalm DOES NOT prove your thinking that there are some who do.
     
  8. saturneptune

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    The only connection between a rag doll and Armianism is that they treat God like a rag doll and do all the effort themselves that is God's job.
     
  9. Van

    Van
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    Matthew 23:13 says men were entering heaven, therefore they were seeking God, something Calvinism claims no unregenerate can do. But if they were regenerate, then they could not have been blocked. So rather than address the issue, you drag in another topic, i.e. by the works of the Law no flesh is justified. Off topic.

    No I never mentioned it!!!!

    Here is my quote:

    And here is your flagrant misrepresentation:
     
  10. saturneptune

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    And here is your flagrant misrepresentation. Christ chose us, we did not chose Him. Without the work of the Holy Spirit, we would never respond. God gives us the faith as a gift. God foreknew, predestined, called, justified, and glorified. It is all about Jesus Christ, and nothing about you or your silly theology.
     
  11. Van

    Van
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    I am not addressing all the various views of Calvinism held by individual believers, I am addressing the published doctrines of the TULI of the Tulip.

    1) You say salvation is not parsed into pieces. Not sure what that addresses, You have God choosing foreseen individuals before creation, then allowing them to live without mercy piling up wrath, then altering them with Irresistible grace, and saving them and giving them faith. Sounds parsed up to me.

    2) My view is much simpler,

    a) God before creation choose the Word to be the Lamb of God, 1 Peter 1:19-20

    b) When God choose His Redeemer, He chose us corporately, those to be redeemed, as a consequence of choosing His Redeemer because you do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem. Ephesians 1:4

    c) God revealed His redemption plan in His word.

    d) God became flesh and lived, and died and arose as God's Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world. John 1:29.

    e) Whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life, John 3:16.

    f) God chooses those whose faith He credits as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5,24), and sets them apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

    The gospel of Christ
     
    #11 Van, Jun 24, 2013
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  12. Van

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    1) Did I say God did not choose us? No, so you seem to be misrepresenting my view.

    2) Does Mark 4:20 indicate we should accept the gospel? Yes, so the idea we do not take the gospel and make it our own is mistaken.

    3) With the "work" of the Holy Spirit we would never respond. Here you speak in code, because work here does not mean the Holy Spirit inspiring the writers to record the gospel of Christ, no you mean irresistible grace. Deception is not something taught by Christ. We of course would never respond without God's revelation. That is not the issue.

    4) No scripture supports the presalvation gift of faith. We are saved by grace through faith, meaning our faith existed before we were chosen. Ephesians 2:8, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

    5) Yes God formulated His redemption plan and when in time He implemented it, it was according to His predetermined plan and foreknowledge. And He predestined whoever would be chosen to be adopted and receive an inheritance. He called us, and those who responded in faith, God chose and placed in Christ, where we were justified, and glorified spiritually.

    6) My theology is based on the straight-up reading of scripture, yours nullifies scripture after scripture. God desires all men to be saved. Your theology says no. God chooses us for salvation through faith in the truth. Your theology says no. God sets before us the choice of life or death. Your theology says no. I could go on.
     
    #12 Van, Jun 24, 2013
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  13. agedman

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    If I am misconstruing your view, I apologize.

    But, you do seem to believe that God "corporately" before the foundation of the world chose (elected) a group to be known as those saved. Though not immediately choosing individuals to salvation kept this unnumbered unpopulated group (elected) until such time as individuals accept Christ and then are considered members of this group.

    It is such thinking that skews your view, in my opinion, and why over and over I have had to show the Scriptures you used for support do not lend themselves to what you desire.

    Now I certainly may have nuances of the view askew, and if so, you will undoubtedly correct any errors, but it still remains that I reject such a view.

    God chose believers - specific humankind - before the foundation of the world. That while such were still in the atoms of Adam and Eve would be adopted as joint heirs.

    As I stated, God's pattern has not been from the elected whole to the individual, but example after example of how He deals with humankind is elected individual to the whole.



    LOOK at the Scriptures:
    14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
    The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
    15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
    Here is the truth laid out plainly. NOT a bit of this is to the unbeliever. It is to a worldly church that is doctrinally unsound.

    That YOU desire it for some other use is not requisite that it applies to your scheme.


    No, it just shows that God in His wisdom and sovereignty can turn the heart in whatever direction He chooses. The same is given when Christ states that having ears they didn't hear and eyes they didn't see. It is God that has all authority, and humankind has no right to question such authority or attempt to hold the creator shackled to the whims of the creature.

    No doubt, just as God did to pharaoh. But just how hard is hard?

    Which dirt was not too hard for the seed to mature unto harvest?

    Who is in charge of the dirt?

    I am not in denial of Romans 11 at all.



    Fine - election to me equates to salvation. They are not inseparable.

    But, I still hold that your "corporate" election view skews what the Scriptures do teach if that view is not held.

    I realize that I am most likely in a minority in this matter, for generally speaking Baptists who are from the non- cal background have held similar thinking for a long time.

    However, I do consider that when one does move away from the typically held and taught view, that there is truly less skew of scriptures.
     
  14. saturneptune

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    No I am not. If one is an Arminian, you decide the question yourself.

    Nonsense, if you are the one that is in the good soil, God put you there. You did not magically tranpsort yourself there. What a bunch of baloney. Who determines where the seed is sown. Oh I know, you do.
    I assume you with without the work........I am not speaking in code. It is solid theology. You views are a fairy tale. Irresistible grace is a doctrine of the Bible, sealed until the day of redemption. This has nothing to do with inspiring writers. This has to do with the salvation process. Then you contradict yourself, "we would never respond without God's revelation. That includes illumination of the Holy Spirit. If a lost person reads the Bible, he might as well read Dr. Suess. Is that your reference book?

    That is just not true. Romans 3:10-11, 1 Cor 2:14, for starters. Then mankind in its natural state can never receive the Gift of Salvation. It is for this reason that Jesus teaches us in John 3:3,
    "Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
    How is it possible for a person to be born again? Jesus is not talking about reincarnation. He is teaching us that natural man must be spiritually awakened. In effect, He teaches that natural man must be born again as spiritual man. Jesus tells us how this is possible in John 6:63,
    "It is the Spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing."
    We see that Jesus teaches that the first step of salvation is that the Holy Spirit quickens, makes a person spiritually alive. Natural man is born again as spiritual man. Scripture, in John 3:8, also shows us that this quickening, awakening, or rebirth, is by the Holy Spirit's will,
    "The Spirit breathes where He desires-."

    The next step is two-fold. A person must become aware of the Gospel message of salvation and believe in Jesus, the Christ. This is proclaimed throughout the Gospel message. Two biblical reference are John 3:36 & 5:24,
    "He who believes on the Son has everlasting life-"
    "Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My Word and believes on Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life."
    We see that the Bible teaches that belief (Faith) is the Key to salvation. Also we find that scripture tells us, in Ephesians 2:5 & 2:8, that Faith is a gift of grace from God.
    "(even when we were dead in sins) has made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved)."
    "For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God-."

    We also find the Bible teaches in Ephesians 1:13, Romans 8:11, & Ephesians 4:30, that in conjunction with belief, the person being saved is sealed with, and in-dwelt by, the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
    "in whom also you, hearing the Word of Truth, the gospel of our salvation, in whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise."
    "But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you."
    "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you are sealed until the day of redemption."

    Imagine the great gift that God gives to the born-again Christian! In the person of the Holy Spirit, He makes them spiritually alive (quickens them); provides the Gospel message of salvation; gives the gift of faith; and then He seals them through the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit.

    Aside from my own comments, snips from http://acharlie.tripod.com/bible_study/salvation_order.html

    Well, you got it partially right. God does it all, you do nothing.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Van

    Van
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    Apology accepted.

    No!! A target group has a common characteristic, i.e. believers, but no individual members. If I was going to make a movie, I might target male teens and make a slasher movie. The target group, in this case those who would be redeemed by His Redeemer was comprised of zero individuals. So they were not known as saved. Only when, during their lifetime, when God spiritually puts them in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, do they join the group. But once in Christ, then we enjoy the blessing of being chosen corporately in Him before the foundation of the world.

    Yes, that is the idea.

    I have supported the premise with scripture after scripture. I have shown that God chooses us individually during our lifetime. I have shown individuals are precluded from being chosen before they lived without mercy.
    None of it has been rebutted, only the vague, it is taken out of context and it does not mean what it says.

    I am pretty sure you never actually considered it. You never seemed to actually address it.

    I have shown how scripture precludes this as even a possibility. No one is a believer before they hear the gospel, and so foreseen individuals chosen unconditionally could not be chosen as believers. We are chosen after we have lived without mercy, that means during our lifetime, not before creation created atoms.

    Think about Abraham. Was he chosen individually? Yes. But then were His descendants chosen to receive a blessing corporately? Yes. No consider the Word, chosen to be the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world. Was He chosen individually? Yes. But when He was chosen as Redeemer, did not God also choose to redeem believers? If yes, then that is our election before time, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.

    Calvinists have been trying to nullify this verse for years. Is a local church comprised of wheat and tares? Yes. All might indeed be professing believers, but God knows their hearts. Those that do not know they are wretched are not believers. It is a call to the tares within the church to repent, to respond to the revelation of God.

    No, this is the opposite of what is said. Hearts you claim have total spiritual inability, and therefore as hard as they can get as far as responding to God, are hardened so that they will not respond. This is very plain, folks, at least some folks, have some ability to respond, and therefore if no response is desired, their hearts are hardened or the message encoded in a parable.
     
  16. Van

    Van
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    You might be using an off the shelf response to Arminianism, but you are not responding to my view. God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.


    Mark 4:20 is crystal, and it is not nonsense. The good soil, the cultivated soil, is ready to receive the gospel. But we are to receive it, accept it, welcome it and make it our own. Remember how Timothy was cultivated by his mother and grandmother using the word of God?

    Only Calvinists think the work of the Holy Spirit equates with Irresistible Grace. You speak deceptively and mistakenly in my opinion. Illumination is yet another code word for "irresistible grace." You are unrepentant. Scripture says the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation. No mention of Calvinism. Just preach Christ crucified.

    We are saved by grace through faith, meaning our faith existed before we were chosen. Ephesians 2:8, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.. Denying scripture does not nullify scripture.

    When God credits our faith as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5,24, He sets us apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. When we are spiritually baptized into Christ, we are baptized into His death, and undergo the circumcision of Christ, our body of flesh (sin burden) is removed and we arise in Christ a new creation, born again from above. We are then sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. That is how we are born again after we believed.

    This is getting the cart before the horse once again. When are we made alive, quickened? When we are put spiritually in Christ for together with Christ we are made alive, Ephesians 2:5. No verse anywhere says or suggests a person is quickened before they are in Christ. If a person is not in Christ they are separated from God, spiritually dead.
    And being spiritually dead does not mean unable to respond the the gospel. No verse says that either.

    Yes and this occurs when God places us spiritually in Christ, not before.

    All true.


    No, Ephesians 2:5 says we have been saved by grace and does not address faith, then Ephesians 2:8 says we are saved by grace through faith. That means our faith provided our access to saving grace, Romans 5:2

    All true but does not conflict with the biblical view I have presented.

    I am going to have to imagine it because it is not in scripture. God makes us alive when He unites us with Christ spiritually. Before we put our faith in Christ we hear and understand the gospel, provided by the Holy Spirit inspired writers, and the Holy Spirit indwelt believers sharing it with us. After God puts us in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, 1 Peter 1:1-2, we are indwelt forever.
     
  17. saturneptune

    saturneptune
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    Every point you made is in error, you ignored or put your out of context twist on Scripture I provided in detail. About the commment above in particular, give one example in the Bible of a person having been quickened, convicted, worked on, whatever you want to call it, by the Holy Spirit and then rejected it. Did Paul reject his salvation experience? Did the Ethiopian reject his salvation experience? By the way, you throw the phrase "you Calvinists" around quite a bit. Obviously you have not read the threads between me an Rippon. I despise the term Calvin or Calvinism. You bring up the name. So do not use the name as a strawman then say "just preach Christ crucified." Finally, disagreeing with you does not equate to be unrepentent.
     
  18. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch
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    Hebrews 6:4-6
    " 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

    Acts 7:51
    Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

    Matthew 11:16-20
    16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

    Matthew 23:39
    O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    2 Peter 2:1
    But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    Matthew 12:31-32

    Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

    If men are already determined to damnation, why would Jesus give a warning about blaspheming the Holy Ghost?



    Furthermore, if the Spirit can not be resisted, then how can He be grieved? Eph 4:30, 1 Thess 5:19

    Yes, several times. Acts 9:4-5, Acts 26:14, until finally Paul said, " Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:" Acts 26:19.

    Not only did the Ethiopian seek God before he was converted contrary to the Calvinist view of total inability, the account shows his AND Phillips involvement in leading him to Christ and the Ethiopians choice made:

    27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

    35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    And yet you put your 2 cents in on every conversation that is about Calvinism. It isn't like anyone invited you to the thread. You freely chose to engage on a debate over a person you say you don't follow. :BangHead:
     
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    You are arguing with an idiot! Just put him on ignore & not let him irritate you...that's what I did:smilewinkgrin:
     
  20. Van

    Van
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    One more time!!

    No, I used every verse straight-up, presenting scriptural truth without slicing and dicing it.


    This demonstrates you do not even understand what I am saying. We are made alive, quickened is the KJV translation of the same Greek word) when we are put in Christ after we have believed. Therefore, the person quickened has already accepted Christ and God has already credited that faith as righteousness. You are still putting the cart before the horse.

    These are moot questions, once saved always saved.

    I am not addressing the various views of various Calvinists, whether they use the name or not, I am addressing the published doctrines of the TULI of the Tulip. If you advocate the doctrines TULI, or any of them, you are a Calvinist or Calvinistic in my book. To debate the name is simply to shift discussion away the mistaken and unbiblical doctrines.

    And again, I say your use of "work" and "illumination" as code for "irresistible grace" is deceptive and not what Christ would have us do. You are unrepentant in that regard.

    Folks, Calvinists, and Calvinistic leaning folks, use a poor and shoddy hermeneutic. They take something said, and rather than determining what is the least that is being said, so nothing is added, they take it as far as possible, extrapolating beyond truth into error. I said Calvinists do not believe the Bible. Calvinists then said I claimed they do not believe any part of the Bible. Here I said unrepentant, referring to the use of code words rather than speaking plainly, and Calvinists claimed I said they had not repented and been saved. These extrapolations into error are the core problem with Calvinism. And the error is self serving, it changes the subject from Calvinism to my behavior, which of course is shuck and jive.
     

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