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Featured A rather complete list of warning Scriptures against OSAS

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by evangelist-7, Jun 23, 2013.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In Matt 13 - death is the starting point - the word of God is sown - and some "spring to life". That is not possible "For the dead".

    Springing to life and remaining alive - is the successful case.

    Springing to life and then dying out - is among the failing case. In other cases the failing example is one where no life at all results.

    That is pretty hard to bend into "OSAS" for those that spring to life.

    In Matt 18 - as your response points out - there is no way around the "forgiveness revoked" lesson that Christ teaches there.

    "So shall My Heavenly Father do unto you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart". Matt 18.

    Forgiveness is full and complete in Matt 18 - and it is on the basis of that full and complete "experienced" forgiveness that the unforgiving servant was "expected" to forgive others. When he fails to continue in that line of walk - then his forgiveness is revoked.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #21 BobRyan, Jun 25, 2013
  2. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I don't see any "now you have it, now you don't" in either passage. A new creation - a child adopted into God's family - doesn't spring up then go away. That just doesn't happen. If I had a garden and I was growing tomatoes, I'd not say that the tomato plants that died away had life in them. I guess I just see the whole of Scripture and the solid, firm words that God has for those who become His that I do not read into these passages that God tries to adopt us but fails because of our doings. Instead I see that He creates whole new creatures that have a different nature, a different bent and different fruit than the world has. I don't see support for being able to go backwards from that. I see straying from the sheepfold but what does God do in that case? He searches, finds and brings back the lost lamb. THAT is the God I serve. :)
     
    #22 annsni, Jun 25, 2013
  3. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Amen! If one studies the bible's definition of born of God, they will not read into these passages that which is not there.
     
    #23 steaver, Jun 25, 2013
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The claim is that no one who truly "comes to life" will ever die back.

    The test of the claim is what we find in the Bible.

    We all know that the lost are "dead" and do not have a way to "bring themselves to life". Coming "to life" - springing to life is only through the act of God in the gospel.

    If we say that springing to life - is to "remain in the lost state" - then to "remain in life" is to "remain lost".

    It cannot be that perseverance in being lost - is the definition of being saved.

    It cannot be that failure to persevere in being lost - is a bad thing.

    Thus if the state of "life" in Matt 13 is the state of being born again - saved - then failure to persevere in that state - is bad.

    But if the state of "life" in Matt 13 is really just some unknown state of "being lost" then persevering in remaining alive - is just perseverance in some as yet unknown state of being lost.

    You can't have it both ways saying that being alive is not being saved - but choosing is persevere in being alive - is-


    That seems like an odd statement.

    Many people would argue that if the plants spring to life and die out - that they need to promote whatever it is that brings them life - and avoid whatever it is that caused death.

    Rather than claim that this is the "Same" as ground that never allowed the seeds to spring up to start with - as if we have nothing to learn or change or promote vs restrict.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #24 BobRyan, Jun 25, 2013
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In an earlier post you state that you are a 1 point Calvinist - thus that you do agree that "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" in John 12:32 is in fact the real "ALL" and that the "God so loved the WORLD" claim of John 3:16 is the real "world" of ALL mankind and not the arbitrarily selected few of Matt 7 for Calvinists.

    If so - how is it that you never make your case to the many posts by Calvinists here who argue 100% the other way around?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #25 BobRyan, Jun 25, 2013
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The Arminian can know that he is saved today - with 100% assurance - but cannot know that 10 years from today he will choose to persevere and will remain saved.

    The 1, 3 and 5 point Calvinists cannot even know that until they see that they persevere 10 years from today so that they do not retro-delete their present day assurance.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #26 BobRyan, Jun 25, 2013
  7. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Oh, I have had plenty of arguments here with 5 pointers, and some of my good friends at church are such as well. While I do see the P in the scriptures, I just don't see the first 4 points as being so clear. I talk about it with my friends, but we never get all bent outa shape over it. It is a non-essential between us, for we both teach Christian values and doctrines of sanctification.
     
    #27 steaver, Jun 25, 2013
  8. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    And what about the 2 and 4 pointer?
     
    #28 steaver, Jun 25, 2013
  9. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7 New Member

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    Super, is your hubby a Christian, or does he just eat BBQ?

    I have decided to respond with love, tact, etc. and I’m quite proud of myself for it.

    1) Verse 21 starts a new paragraph. We don’t know who Jesus is speaking about,
    but He never knew them because they did not do the will of the Father.
    You need to check and see exactly what God’s will is for BACs.
    Perhaps that requires going through the Bible again, but Google is easier.

    2) This just handles the case of a BAC who has denied Jesus before men.
    Naturally, you say it’s impossible, but just wait for the great tribulation.

    3) It says #2 receives the word of God with joy, yet …
    It says #3 heard the word, but became unfruitful ... and we know all about that …
    John 15:1-6 • Christians who do not bear fruit (are not abiding in Jesus) are thrown into the fire.

    4) It just says what you can do so that God will not forgive your sins (at the end?).
    To be constantly forgiven, I suggest that you understand 1 John 1:9.

    5) You have changed it from one to every single human being.

    I will admit that my first 5 are far from being the best consecutive 5.
    .
     
    #29 evangelist-7, Jun 25, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 25, 2013
  10. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7 New Member

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    Well, I serve the God who has demonstrated 3 stages of grace to me:
    1) for me (anyone at all really) to have a chance to be with Him in heaven
    2) for His free gift of grace-faith-righteousness-salvation
    3) for forgiving my sins when I confess them and repent of them, 1 John 1:9

    #3 is the part that I don't see Baptists understanding because they don't mention it.
    Of course, if you're OSAS, who needs confessing and repenting, right?
    .
     
    #30 evangelist-7, Jun 25, 2013
  11. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7 New Member

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    Yes, I know about the born of God, the adoption, the promises, etc.

    But, IMO, these only concern those who were elected before the foundation of the world.
    IMO, these ones are NOT all BACs ... all BACs are not in this group.
    These elect are the overcomers of Romans 8:28-30 and mentioned in Rev chapters 2-3, etc.

    I see it this way because of ALL of the warnings and threats!
    I don't see these warnings aimed only at non-believers in the churches.
    Everyone tells me that all 1st C. church members were baptized believers!
    .
     
    #31 evangelist-7, Jun 25, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 25, 2013
  12. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    How often would you say you sin evangel? About once a year, once a month, once a week, once a day, a few times a day?
     
    #32 steaver, Jun 25, 2013
  13. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Pride goeth before the fall you know. ;)

    Yes, it starts a new paragraph for us in English but there was no paragraphs in the original languages. Is it a new thought or a continuation? They never did the will of the Father because they never knew Him. It's not a believer that He's speaking to but the world.

    Did Peter lose his salvation?

    "are not abiding in Jesus" is the key. If the Spirit abides in us, we will abide in Him.

    They did not "become unfruitful" because they never bore fruit in the first place.

    I do understand 1 John 1:9 and confess my sins regularly. But you didn't answer my question. When we are saved, our sins are forgiven. Do you believe that we must confess every single sin after that or else we lose our salvation and go to hell? What if we are not aware of our sin? What if for some reason, I do not understand that something is a sin and I don't confess it? What if I lied and was suddenly hit by a car and never had a chance to confess? I remember growing up in the Catholic church when I was young and thinking about that with regards to confession. After confession, if I sinned before I could get back to confession and I died, I'd not go to heaven. It was a frightening belief and one I was happy to understand was a wrong belief as I read the Scriptures.
    No, every single human being that I have the the ability to help. I can help a LOT of people around me if I had the resources but I don't. I do what I can but there are times that I've walked past a homeless person and not given them food or clothing. Am I going to hell?
     
    #33 annsni, Jun 25, 2013
  14. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    What Baptist doesn't mention 1 John 1:9 and the fact that we should confess our sin to the One who paid for them?
     
    #34 annsni, Jun 25, 2013
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    In an earlier post you state that you are a 1 point Calvinist - thus that you do agree that "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" in John 12:32 is in fact the real "ALL" and that the "God so loved the WORLD" claim of John 3:16 is the real "world" of ALL mankind and not the arbitrarily selected few of Matt 7 for Calvinists.

    If so - how is it that you never make your case to the many posts by Calvinists here who argue 100% the other way around?


    Ok - however Biblicist on this board has been starting thread after thread on this idea that God does not love everyone enough to actually draw them to himself - even though John 12:32 says "I will draw ALL unto Me".

    My curiosity arises when I found that there are others on this board who do not agree with that - but are not engaged in that discussion.

    It makes it appear that only Arminians would differ with Biblicist.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #35 BobRyan, Jun 26, 2013
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Well, Paul's opinion is that all who are chosen before the foundation of the wolrd are all "chosen TO SALVATION through sanctification of the Spirt and beleif of the truth" (2 Thes. 2:13) and NONE "of all" that come to Christ in faith shall be lost - Jn. 6:37,39.
     
    #36 The Biblicist, Jun 26, 2013
  17. sag38

    sag38 Active Member

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    Seminary Class 101: Here class is a textbook example of prooftexting......

     
    #37 sag38, Jun 26, 2013
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The context of Romans 1:19-20 and John 1:9 is not the context of John 6:44-45,65 and yet you are treating them as though they are.

    Drawing as defined and explained in John 6 is in a context of a QUALFIED "ALL" (v. 45a) which is a quotation from Isa. 53:14 "ALL" of which are "children of God." That cannot be said of the context of Rom. 1:19-20 or John 1:9. The context of John 1:9 is REJECTION by his own not coming to christ in faith. The context of Rom. 1:19-20 is REJECTION not coming to Christ in faith (Rom. 1:20-22).

    It is also a qualified "ALL" that demands "EVERY MAN" so taught comes to Christ in faith (v. 45b). Thus again proving he is speaking only of the "chldren of God" (Isa. 54:13). That is not the context of Rom. 1:19-20 or John 1:9 as NONE are described as coming to Christ in faith in either.

    It is in a context that the SAME "him" drawn is the SAME "him" that is raised to eternal life (v. 44).

    Moreover, you ignore the obvious. Only those "given" by the Father come to Christ (Jn. 6:37,39) and only those "drawn" by the Father come to Christ and in both cases "ALL" given come to Christ and "him" drawn is raised to life and is part of the "ALL" taught which "EVERY MAN" thus taught also comes to Christ (Jn. 6:44-45).

    In direct contrast John 1:9 and Romans 1:19-20 are general and unqualified and deal only with the light of conscience and light of nature.

    So in defense of my "one point" friend he can believe in the general drawing by conscience, nature and reason (Rom. 1:19-20) without denying the qualfied limited and restricted "drawing" that is contextually restricted to a QUALIFIED people who are "given" by the Father to the Son, who ALL come to Christ in faith and NONE are lost, who are "ALL" taught by God as the QUALIFIED "children of God" of which "EVERY MAN" comes to Christ in faith.

    In regard to John 1:9, John previously defined the "light" given to all men as PHYSICAL LIFE - "In him was LIFE and THE LIFE WAS THE LIGHT OF MEN." Unless you believe Christ gives ETERNAL life to every man coming into the world, then this must refer only to PHYSICAL LIFE.
     
    #38 The Biblicist, Jun 26, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2013
  19. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7 New Member

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    annsni,

    Thou sure likes to play word games and all kinds of tricks.
    No thanks ... Bye!
    .
     
    #39 evangelist-7, Jun 26, 2013
  20. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7 New Member

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    Almost everyone here in almost every post recently ... why don't you read them?

    BTW, the invite in the recent tongues thread is open to you as well. Good Luck!
    .
     
    #40 evangelist-7, Jun 26, 2013
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