A response... from a thread not yet shut down

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by HeirofSalvation, Feb 10, 2013.

  1. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation
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    Win...Those Historians are NOT deceived....they are correct:thumbsup: But, it doesn't demonstrate what you are thinking it demonstrates...
    Luther was "Theologically" very anti-semitic.
    Luther was problematically very anti-semitic....and there is no doubt that Luther's views may have carried some weight with the Germans as far as anti-semitism is concerned (I taught a course in the history of "anti-semitism" in Germany pre-WW2)....but Luther's more anti-semitic rantings weren't directly related to his view of soteriology...Luther was somewhat anti-semitic, but it wasn't the unique soteriological views commonly called "Calvinism" today which was the source of his anti-semitism. It was based on entirely different issues.

    Pre-WW2 Germany (under the Weimar Republic) was reeling from WW1...Jews were not allowed in the German army in WWI...thus numerous one-legged men returned home to find their moms foreclosed on by property owners (often Jewish) who were not allowed to go to war.

    You are neglecting the fact that Dietrich Bonhoeffer was very much a Lutheran too.
    Luther's rantings did have some influence on the anti-semitism of that era, but it wasn't because of the uniquely "Calvinistic" claims of soteriology (vs. Arminianism) that was the source of it. It was merely Luther's writings which were not distinctly either "Calvinistic" nor "Arminianistic"...which effected the thinking. Even if Luther were a 5-point Molinist...he would have written the same way about Jews.

    The anti-semitism in Germany was largely period-distinctive, experiential and the only Philosophico-Theological influence which gave it merit (at least logically) was a commitment to DARWINISM...not Calvinism.
    Hitler had a bust of Friedrich Nietzche on his desk...not a bust of Calvin.
     
    #1 HeirofSalvation, Feb 10, 2013
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  2. saturneptune

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    IMO, any comparison between the Geneva government between 1552-1564 and Germany between 1932-1945 has no validity. While both to a degree were brutal, the government of Germany was pure evil. The Hitler regime murdered people in the millions based on race and ethnicity. There was total state control, and nothing based on any type of religion. This probably comes as close if not the closest to being the most evil government to ever exist.

    I am not going to defend Calvin, because in my mind, he lead a life certainly unworthy of having a doctrine named after him. However, his regime was not totally evil. Yes, it was brutal, but is was based on his perception of morality in Scripture. No one would tolerate his antics today. In fact, he deserved to be in prison. There is no need to recount what he did with his theocracy, as this has been repeated many times. Our nation is a nation of freedom and liberty, and his, basically, devoid of any human rights.

    This is the difference. Hitler has no regard for the Lord. He wholesale murders millions. Calvin on the other hand did have the Lord as his guiding motivation, misguided as it was. Those he murdered were for just reasons in his mind, and only a few. That does not excuse his actions.

    To compare Hitler and Calvin is way over the edge. Neither deserve any praise.
     
    #2 saturneptune, Feb 10, 2013
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  3. Winman

    Winman
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    I know Hitler was a devotee of Nietzche and that evolution influenced his anti-Semitism, but I am talking about the German PEOPLE, not Hitler. The German people were largely Lutheran and Roman Catholic, both very anti-Semite.

    When you believe that the Jews are Christ killers, utterly depraved, the non-elect, it is easy to convince the people that it is good to eradicate the Jews.

    From one link provided;

    Now, are you trying to convince me that writings such as these did not effect the German people over hundreds of years?

    I work with several Poles, and they hate the Jews as much as the Germans did. It has nothing to do with evolution, but religion.
     
  4. HeirofSalvation

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    Much to learn here.........Calvin was LOADED with problems....but, as you said, at least he THOUGHT that God was his guiding motivation...

    He was wrong on MANY points. But in a strange sort of way....he believed the Scriptures were his guide.
    NOTHING DOING with the NAZIS. There is simply no comparison.

    Calvin shared the same basic "world-view" those of us on Baptist Board share...the very "Word-view" of the Nazis was ENTIRELY different...

    Neither Calvin himself, nor so-called "Calvinism" is appropriately blamed for the Nazi atrocities.
    That was PURE Darwinism...Plain and simple.
     
  5. Winman

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    Double post
     
    #5 Winman, Feb 10, 2013
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  6. Winman

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    I disagree, Hitler's hatred of Jews was not based on evolution, but religion.

    Hitler considered himself a Christian and said so often. It was the belief that Christians were "elect" while the Jews were depraved children of the devil that convinced Hitler Jews should be killed. Evolution simply supported this view.
     
  7. HeirofSalvation

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    #7 HeirofSalvation, Feb 10, 2013
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  8. Monster

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  9. Winman

    Winman
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  10. Winman

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  11. kiwimac

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    Sorry, Darwin's evolutionary law had nothing to do with the Nazis. They, quite candidly, burnt his books because they saw them as being 'un-Aryan.' The source of Nazi anti-semitism should be placed firmly at Luther's feet.
     
  12. quantumfaith

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

    The economics and humiliation of Versailles did SO much to provide the garden which would spring forth a charismatic leader in the person of Hitler.
     
  13. quantumfaith

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    As HOS, was intending to communicate, laying AS solely at the feet of Luther (and his theology) is incorrect. It can certainly be argued that they played a part, but that is for historians and theologians to argue and debate. It is abundantly clear that serious and scandalous periods of AS existed even prior to Luther and the reformation. "Christianized" europe often expelled and even massacred jews. Often such periods were also associated with economic and other forms of unrest.

    922 B.C. The Jewish kingdom is established

    70 A.D. The Romans conquer the Jewish kingdom – the Temple of Solomon is destroyed.

    11-12th Cent. Massacres on Jews in the Rhineland and by the Crusaders.

    1215 Jews in Europe are forced to dress in a certain way or carry the Jewish mark.

    1290 The Jews are expelled from England.

    14th Cent. The Jews are expelled from France.

    1492 The Jews are expelled from Spain, unless they are willing to be baptised.

    1648 Massacres on Jews in Poland and the Ukraine.

    19th Cent. The Jews are gradually emancipated in Germany and in other Westernm European countries.

    1819 Pogrom against the Jews of Copenhagen.

    1881 Pogroms in Russia following the murder of the Tsar.

    1919 Pogroms in Eastern Europe – 60,000 Jews are killed in the Ukraine by Ukrainian nationalists.
     
  14. Crabtownboy

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    Sadly the Nazis did use quotes from Luther to promote their hatred of the Jews.

    In the Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy the author, Eric Metaxas, speaks about this. Unfortunately I do not have the book in hand so I cannot give direct quotes. If my memory serves me correctly the writings that are anti-Semitic are in his later writings.

    The book is a good read giving good insight into the life of Bonhoeffer.
     
  15. quantumfaith

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    Of this, I have no doubt. Although the "kernel" of AS was present even before the impact of Luther himself. It was already present and embedded in european culture.
     
  16. Bronconagurski

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    When has there been a time when there has not been AS? AS is alive and well in the US, I am ashamed to admit, even in the present admin.
     
  17. quantumfaith

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    Maybe prior to the Caananite conquest? :)
     
  18. Crabtownboy

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    Yes, that is true. Many politicians used the Jews to deflect attention away from other real problems. The Russian Czars for instance.
     
  19. Luke2427

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    You are missing the point.

    Who CARES if every Nazi who ever LIVED WORSHIPED Martin Luther?

    It is non-sequitur to claim that Luther's SOTERIOLOGY led to the holocaust.

    That is one HECK of a leap.
     
  20. HeirofSalvation

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    Exactly.....In fact (though they didn't) even if EVERY Nazi leader who claimed to support the "Final Solution" claimed that they based it upon "Calvinistic" or "Lutheran" or even "Arminian" sensibilities...it simply would NEVER follow that those particular points of view were responsible or led to those conclusions.

    In order to "blame" a viewpoint for a set of atrocities one must demonstrate
    1.)Historically...that that was the view-point responsible for it...in TWO WAYS:
    a.] Those who conducted those atrocities claimed that that was the view which necessitated their actions
    b.] They were honest about whether or not those were, in fact, the views or reasons which led them to engage in them.....(In other words...they weren't merely lying to the populace)
    2.) That that particular view-point also logically necessitates the atrocious crimes committed.

    It is my contention that:
    Item 1-a..... is non-provable.
    Item 1-b..... is also non-provable

    Item 2 is demonstrably DIS-PROVABLE.

    As much as I am NO Calvinist. It is simply the case that there is NOTHING whatsoever in the set of Soteriological truth-claims of Calvinism which necessitates anything along the order of Nazi atrocities.

    EVEN IF... it were true that those responsible for those atrocities
    Claimed that it was their "Calvinism" or "Lutheranism" (solely)... which was the force behind their commission of such atrocities...and they were being honest about it
    They would still be simply mis-applying those premises as they believed them in order to commit them.

    If it were the case that Calvinism (rightly understood) logically necessitated the attrocities of the Nazis......BELIEVE ME.....I'd have figured it out by now, and used it as a "defeater" of Calvinist Theology.

    Wish I could......I can't.
    1.)Calvinism is IMO false.
    2.)I believe Calvinism is essentially "falsifiable"
    3.)This is not a set of valid arguments to falsify it...sorry.

    I almost wish it were. :smilewinkgrin:
     
    #20 HeirofSalvation, Feb 12, 2013
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